Victoria Hillman - Macro and Wildlife Photographer

Nick and Steve's guest photographer for this episode is Victoria (Vic) Hillman, a macro and wildlife photographer. Vic shares how her Zoology and Biology academic background helps her in her work, and her understanding of the subjects she photographers. She also discusses her project " Forgotten Little Creatures", the plants, invertebrates, amphibians and reptiles which are often feared, ignored, overlooked and even forgotten about despite the important role they play in their habitats.

Steve and Nick discuss destination weddings, and the risks of UK photographers photographing weddings in Trump's USA.  The also discuss the new Sigma BF, a revolutionary new camera with an emphasis on style and design. 

https://www.forgottenlittlecreatures.com/

Vic Hillman on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/vic.hillman_flc.project/

Sigma BF https://www.sigma-global.com/en/cameras/bf/

Evoto AI Photo editing https://www.evoto.ai/

Nick Church and Steve Vaughan are professional wedding photographers based in the UK. They both use Sony Alpha cameras and lenses.

Nick's website : https://www.nickchurchphotography.co.uk/
Nick's Instagram : https://www.instagram.com/nickchurchphotography/

Steve's website : https://www.samandstevephotography.com/
Steve's Wedding Instagram : https://www.instagram.com/samandstevephotography/
Steve's personal Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/stevevaughanphotography

Any technical information given by the presenters is based on their understanding and opinion at the time of recording

Transcript

Steve Vaughan (00:02)
Hello again and welcome to the photography part. A photography podcast for both working professionals and enthusiast photographers alike. As my wife Samantha just said in that jingle you just heard a moment ago. I'm here again with my good mate Nick Church. Nick, how you doing sir?

Nick Church (00:01)
Yeah

I'm very well. Yeah, I'm good. I'm, if people are watching this on YouTube, they'll just see me grinning like an idiot. It's because you completely messed up the three word intro that you had to say, but, second time around you did it completely flawlessly. So, right. Ready? Sorry. We can edit this, but I will have to do another take.

Steve Vaughan (00:23)
I Yeah, I know. That was our secret. I'm supposed to tell anybody. I I

want you to promise we're not going to do this one on YouTube because this morning I tried to, actually yesterday I tried to shave and I've took about five inches off my chin. So I look like I've been in some kind of a chainsaw massacre attack. So yeah, yes it did.

Nick Church (00:40)
bit of a yeah ouch bit of

home DIY cosmetic surgery is best avoided usually

Steve Vaughan (00:47)
What we could

do, of course, if it was a photo, is use your photo to hide that critical, which is a very clever segue I just thought of. Hey, again, in all seriousness, are you using it more? Because I'm using it more and more now.

Nick Church (00:55)
very good. Yeah.

I, yeah, I use it an awful actually for, I'm finding for wedding portraits, you know, they, they sorts of shots, not your, not every wedding photo, of course, but the ones that I would have normally thought I'm, is where somebody is like full enough in the frame that I think it'd be worth just not doing the usual retouching. do a light room, which doesn't quite cut it when it's, you know, detailed. So I would normally go into something like Photoshop for that. And I'm finding I'm doing that in Voto so much more quickly. It's just saving me hours. I'm doing it. I only do it for probably maybe five or six.

Steve Vaughan (01:19)
No, no.

tears into.

Nick Church (01:29)
portraits in a wedding set, but it really makes a difference because they're the ones that tend to be the, for me anyway, the headline kind of nice side window light, really lovely portrait. It's the stuff I tend to put on socials and things. to be able to

Steve Vaughan (01:40)
And also it's

the ones they're going to buy and print and put on the wall themselves as well, probably. Yeah, all being well. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm finding I'm using it more and more as a plugin for Lightroom as opposed to a standalone app. Is that how you use it?

Nick Church (01:43)
Yeah, hopefully so.

Yeah,

absolutely. Yeah. As soon as I start edit, if it had a workflow where you're exporting, then loading it into something else and then bringing it back into Lightroom, I know I wouldn't bother because that would just mess up my workflow. keeping it that way just works really well.

Steve Vaughan (02:02)
Hmm. Hmm.

Great. Great. Yeah. I find it really, really just as you say, not for everything. It's just a useful, you know, another, another tool in the toolbox, so to speak, really, isn't it? Really? Yeah. Yeah. So, so you're getting busy with weddings now. We're starting to get a few coming through.

Nick Church (02:14)
Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yes. I a couple, a couple of weddings in the last week. Really lovely one. What day were we on today? Monday. Monday today. Is it? Right? Gosh. I'm just trying to work out what happened to Monday because I had a wedding on Sunday, but that feels like it was yesterday. And I'm always tempted to check my calendar to see if you're right about the day being Tuesday, but I'll take your word for it. You're a more, you're normally more organized on these things than I am. But yeah, it was, it

Steve Vaughan (02:27)
Tuesday. Come on get with it come on.

Victoria (02:31)
you

Steve Vaughan (02:37)
and Monday between.

Definitely Tuesday.

Nick Church (02:47)
Beautiful weather. You wouldn't believe it. You know, from the, I don't know what it's been like in Oxfordshire, but it's been bright, but really cold here. But on Sunday, it was absolutely perfect for a wedding. It was great. So went down to Clevedon Pier, the old kind of Victorian Pier there and got some great shots, avoided the crowds a little bit. And so it was nice. Yeah, really good. I've also been flat out busy with the Nick Church Creative Academy as well. That's really ramping up.

Steve Vaughan (03:04)
great. Yeah.

So I'm

taking off for you now then. That's good. Yeah.

Nick Church (03:12)
Yeah,

so it is, it's really exciting. It's growing in terms of the number, the subscriber list of any new platform like this. You have to build up people that are interested first. because you want, you're going to do a bunch of effort. All the platforms are really expensive to buy and you want to make sure you've got a really good, you know, body of interested people that are really going to benefit before you start. I've been doing some freebies. So the last one I did was a video lesson, which is part of the Photoshopped Unleash.

Steve Vaughan (03:21)
Of course,

Nick Church (03:41)
unleashed Photoshop unleashed online course, which will be available. So I did a lesson. I know we can't start again now though, can we? Cause it's too far in. that's was funny enough. said about a photo, this, this one's about replacing the background in Photoshop, which you can also do in a photo. but without having to buy a different platform and it's, it's just a method that is really quick. So I've done a video, a video lesson on that.

Steve Vaughan (03:44)
And he's taking the mick out of me getting things wrong.

I saw that,

Nick Church (04:06)
And so yeah, that's pretty popular as well. So that's getting a lot of people thinking, this might be something that's really worth sort of keeping involved in.

Steve Vaughan (04:13)
And who's signing up?

it enthusiasts or people wanting to get into professional photography or even working professionals? OK.

Nick Church (04:17)
I would say a mix of both. In fact,

this is a mix through the whole tiers, but I've been relatively careful in the content that I have been releasing, the free resources. So there are some beginner stuff that are useful. So there's that the one on manual mode, that sort of PDF, but manual mode, there's a lot of people that have downloaded the culling guide in Lightroom. So this method I use to cull weddings, which is really quick. That will be presumably mostly more professional people that have used that one. And I think the portrait one is probably a bit of everybody because

Steve Vaughan (04:43)
Yeah, sure.

Hmm?

Nick Church (04:46)
you

know, that a lot of beginners that start into photography want to take pictures of their kids and stuff like that. so yeah, that's a bit of a mix. So yeah.

Steve Vaughan (04:50)
Absolutely. It's fun you

should mention taking pictures of your kids because that's what I was doing yesterday actually because that's why know yesterday was Monday. So my son's getting married in September up in Worcestershire and we've got sort of five kids between us both from our previous marriages and he's the youngest. We thought he'd be the last to get married but he's the first and it's in Worcestershire. Now our good friend and Fujifilm ambassador and brilliant photographer Emily Renier is going to photograph their wedding. I'm planning to get drunk.

Nick Church (05:01)
yeah.

Steve Vaughan (05:19)
But no, it wasn't not even across the nanosecond, but what they did ask me to do, could I do like a pre-wedding shoot for them? And I said, as long as they were happy for me to do that. So I was doing that yesterday, kind of weird photograph of my son. But it was good fun as well. They were great, actually. So yeah, it was good fun.

Nick Church (05:20)
Were you even tempted? know people must have asked you were you attempted to do it, but you...

nice.

yeah. Yeah.

But I suppose

things like that, when you're doing a like a portrait session like that, or a couple of sessions, knowing the people is, makes it so much easier. You know, the sorts of comments you get, you know, the sense of humor, you can kind of have a laugh with it, you know, and if you, cause if you got that wrong, it be a bit of a misstep with the wrong, know, if you haven't, you know, so absolutely. Yeah.

Steve Vaughan (05:48)
Yeah, I guess so. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, it could be. And that's experience of the job, isn't it really? Yeah.

But that's why we, you know, we often do pre-wedding shoots with couples because it's, get to know each other before the shoot. yeah, I do try and make them laugh. I have a bit of a great line in dad jokes, which I won't bore you with now because we'll lose all our viewers and listeners if we do that. So, right. It's probably, yeah, I was going to say probably time we do use our guest.

Nick Church (06:10)
You

Well, before we, before we lose our listeners, I'm just, I'm just going to do a,

well, I two things we're to do that. I'm going to do a quick, web, web address, plug for the Nick Church Creative domain that I've just got. so it is Nick, www.nickchurchcreativeacademy.com. So if you head there, there's an article and you can sign up for these updates and all these free resources and stuff. And I will leave it there because it is not absolutely not an advertising podcast.

Victoria (06:39)
I

Nick Church (06:41)
So today we have with us Vic Hillman. Vic studied zoology in marine zoology at university. So you think that's a pretty unusual thing, but we have had our other guests, our previous guest Geraint Roberts, who has also studied marine biology, but I think they're probably the only two that I've heard of. And then photography for her seems like it was a way for her to share the beauty of the things that she was studying, the things that she was discovering with the world.

She is, I would say a expert, certainly in the macro field. Her macro photos are incredible. So we're going to see some of those shortly. She's a judge at the wild art photographer of the year, and she's contributed to National Geographic and BBC. plus as a few ambassadorships as well that I'd like to speak to her about as well, because they sound interesting. She's written a book, and manages a project called Forgotten Little Creatures, which I'm really keen to hear more on as well. So, Avik, welcome to the podcast.

Victoria (07:37)
Hi, welcome Nick. Sorry. Hi Steve, hi Nick. Thank you for having me along.

Nick Church (07:40)
Hi.

Steve Vaughan (07:40)
We welcome you.

Nick Church (07:44)
Do you want to just

do it so we don't rely on my clumsy attempts at introducing all the most important bits about you? Do want to just give us a bit background about Vic Hillman and how you got to where you are now?

Victoria (07:50)
Mm.

Yeah, sure. So I'm actually a zoologist by training. I studied zoology with marine zoology at Bangor Uni and then went on to study wildlife biology and conservation at Edinburgh Napier. And photography for me, I started when I was about five years old. My parents bought me my first little camera. I would run around and take pictures of all kinds of things. Even then there was a lot of bugs involved, but it was 35 mils. My parents would be

ease, just slow down, take less pictures. Because anyone that's used 35 mil knows it's very expensive. But it was something that's kind of grown. So I'm completely self-taught as a photographer. I have no formal qualifications or teaching. But it was a way for me to capture what I was seeing, what I was experiencing. And that's actually worked out quite well to do the two together. So I've actually gone on to work on a National Geographic project. And I was a National Geographic

Nick Church (08:30)
This is getting expensive.

Steve Vaughan (08:32)
Ha ha ha ha.

Victoria (08:57)
explorer for that. A lot of that was actually camera trap stuff, more than anything. But that was my role was basically sitting there trawling through a year's worth of camera trap footage from about 20 cameras.

Nick Church (08:58)
So well.

Steve Vaughan (09:02)
Okay.

Nick Church (09:03)
Hmm.

Steve Vaughan (09:11)
Gosh. Gosh.

Nick Church (09:12)
And where was that based?

Where were the traps at? Were they local to you or were all over?

Victoria (09:17)
No, they were in the Carpathian mountains in Romania. So was a, it was a... So we were actually doing a large carnival research project trying to assess the numbers and the health of the different populations in a specific area. So we had, so I was based in the UK and then we had the team in Romania and they would go out and do all the camera traps and just bulk send me the videos and stuff. And I would go out and have...

Nick Church (09:21)
well, okay. So what's a wildlife is triggering those.

Steve Vaughan (09:22)
Wow, amazing.

Victoria (09:46)
a couple of weeks here and there as well. So we could go out and see, you know, is there another place we need to put the traps? And the thing is, when you're doing a project like that, like you have nothing to do when the traps are there, certainly when you first put them out. So we would go around and see what else we could find. So we'd be kind of monitoring invertebrate populations and stuff like that as well, alongside the large carnivores, which was actually really cool, really good fun.

Steve Vaughan (10:12)
So I'm

sure it was. So I'm fascinated by the work that you do. And I'm sure we'll explore this in a bit more detail as we go through the chat. But would you be able to do the photography without your zoology experience and your qualifications? Do the two things have to coexist or could somebody like me, Nick, it's hard to imagine, know, but could we do that kind of photography or is the zoology crucial to the work that you do, do think?

Victoria (10:33)
Yeah.

I don't think it is crucial. mean, for me, the two very much intertwined because I studied a lot of animal behavior. So for me, it was really learning about the different animals, about their different behaviors, the times a year they would come out, learning their patterns and routines so I could almost kind of semi-predict what was going on. It's not essential. I mean, there's plenty of amazing wildlife photographers out there that don't have a zoology background.

Steve Vaughan (10:45)
to you.

Right.

Victoria (11:08)
or a science background and just produce some amazing stuff. I personally just find that it does really, really help because it helps me connect with the animal that I'm photographing, but I'm also studying it at the same time. So they do very much go hand in hand and it just allows me to capture maybe some different behaviors or more intimate portraits than most people would probably aim for.

Steve Vaughan (11:16)
sure.

Nick Church (11:32)
I guess, yeah, my studying routines, I'm not even that sure of my own routine at any one time. So having to do that for lots of different creatures would be a tough one. When would be a good time? I bring some photos up, Steve? Because I've got a few of these pictures and they're lovely. want to ask a question, Steve, while I just bring this up. It takes me about 26 seconds.

Victoria (11:47)
Yeah.

Steve Vaughan (11:47)
Yeah, sure.

So

the remaining projects, so what kind of animals were you photographing, were you trapping and videoing? What sort of things were you finding? And were there animals that you weren't expecting turning up as well on the traps?

Victoria (12:07)
So we were, it was mainly wolves, bears and lynx. They were our three target species. And we had, I think in the end we recorded, it was over 20 individual bears because my role was actually doing like identification of them. So knowing where the trap is, trying to like identify each individual. And that actually included some cubs and some amazing footage of the cubs when they first came out of the den. So they would have been kind of teeny tiny.

Steve Vaughan (12:20)
Wow.

Incredible.

Victoria (12:37)
We had a couple of amazing videos of Carpathian Lynx, which very similar to the European Lynx, but it's slightly different color and the legs are a little bit longer. And we had some footage of that in the middle of the day, just walking straight past the camera trap, which was amazing. And we had one wolf pack, which I think if I remember right, was quite a long time ago now that I did it. was four in the pack.

Steve Vaughan (12:54)
Amazing.

Victoria (13:05)
and we even had footage of those in the middle of the day as well. So it was, they were our main targets, but I mean we had deer pop up. think we definitely had wildcat, European wildcat pop up as well. So yeah, it was absolutely amazing.

Steve Vaughan (13:09)
Incredible, yeah.

And how rare are

these animals now in that part of Europe? Would you see them in the street routinely or are they getting quite rare and quite threatened?

Victoria (13:30)
No, so unfortunately there's a lot of hunting that still goes on. the best, I mean, the area that we were working in was a Natura 2000 project site. So it was a bit more protected, but even so, the animals are very, very wary of humans. So to even see a lynx with your own eyes or a wolf with your own eyes is incredibly rare. We did find on one of the hikes we were on when I was out there, we did see one bear and the moment it clocked us, it was gone.

Steve Vaughan (13:53)
I'm sure.

Victoria (14:00)
They're just so skittish. But on some of the footage, we'd set up the camera and we'd actually just got back to the vehicle. And then when we actually went through the footage about two weeks later, we actually picked up a mum and her two cubs, must have been about 10, 15 minutes after we'd set up the camera. So they were there when we were there, but we didn't see them.

Steve Vaughan (14:17)
Wow.

Incredible. Yeah. Ever felt a bit nervous or bit threatened or bit scared?

Victoria (14:32)
actually no, funnily enough. Your senses are definitely more heightened knowing that these animals are there. You know, know there are wolves, there are wild boar, there are bears and to be honest out of all them I'd be most wary of the wild boar and anything else most things will just, just you know disappear. So your senses are definitely more heightened like every noise you're just like what was that? What was that? But actually no there was there was no fear for me.

Steve Vaughan (14:46)
Mm-hmm.

Victoria (15:02)
And I actually, whenever I'm in nature and around wildlife, there is no fear there at all for me. There's a very healthy respect, but there is no fear.

Steve Vaughan (15:10)
Mm.

Fantastic. So Nick was.

Nick Church (15:13)
And how does that, so

we've got that body of work that you did in the mountains and, you know, sort of larger creatures. How did that, did that run alongside your more macro work, your much more detailed work or did that come afterwards?

Victoria (15:29)
No, it actually ran alongside it. So we kind of set the cameras up and we would go out. So a lot of like the other, the rest of team, they weren't really big into finding all these other things. So I would actually go out and kind of help them find them and then look at them. So I was actually doing a lot of macro work while I was out there as well.

Nick Church (15:48)
What's your kit for your typical setup? Can you see the sort of shots we're showing now? Just such beautiful images that I'm just really keen to know what lends these works. think our listeners, I'm sure, will be keen to know that as well.

Victoria (15:52)
So my... Yep.

Steve Vaughan (15:58)
Yeah.

Victoria (15:59)
Thank you.

So these are all with a Sigma 180mm macro, which is my absolute favourite lens in the world. And it's a mix between a 5D3 and a 7D2. Snakes generally with the 7D2 because with the crop factor, it can be that little bit further away. But yeah, the 180 is my absolute go-to lens.

Nick Church (16:27)
So that's pretty long for, you know, in my experience anyway, for a macro lens. But that must be very helpful for things like insects, especially butterflies that are very, you know, as you say, skittish.

Victoria (16:38)
It is incredibly useful actually. I don't have to be as close to them as I would be if I was using a 100 mil, which is much more kind of standard macro lens. I can be that little bit further away. And, you know, these animals all know that I'm there, but, you know, with a lot of the work as well, you'll notice I'm either eye level or just below. So they're aware that I'm there, but to them, I'm not a predator because I'm not coming in over the top. So they're that little bit more relaxed.

Nick Church (16:46)
Yeah.

Steve Vaughan (16:47)
Yeah.

Nick Church (17:05)
and probably their radar of how far away you are, they're keeping an eye on you and making you all, know, several eyes in some cases, but making sure that you're at a safe distance and that reach must be held, especially on a crop sensor as well.

Steve Vaughan (17:05)
So what?

Yeah, absolutely.

Victoria (17:21)
Yeah, I mean, it's absolutely brilliant.

Steve Vaughan (17:21)
So when I tried to photograph, put

the flies in the garden here, one of the challenges has always been, you know, when I did have a macro lens, it was a hundred millimeter, I don't have it anymore. The challenge was, as you say, spooking them, but also keeping things still, you know, in the garden. I just wonder how much, you know, just thinking about us as wedding photographers, how much we compare with terms of creating a picture as opposed to capturing a picture. I wonder how much in what you do, how much it is that you see the picture.

photograph it as opposed to do you do any sort of, you know, holding leaves back, bring lights in, dare I say even, you know, finding ways of making the insect or the creature not move. And I don't know what that would be, by the way, you know, how much of it is, if you like, is controlling as opposed to creating.

Victoria (18:09)
So for me, there is very little controlling. So if I'm going to do invertebrates, something like butterflies or dragonflies, damselflies, I will be up at stupid o'clock in the morning when most people are still sleeping. So I can sometimes in the middle of summer be on site at 4 a.m. And most people probably realize that, you know, they probably think their clock doesn't actually have that time, but...

Nick Church (18:35)
I was going to

offer to hold your bags for a shoot, but I'm out after that.

Victoria (18:41)
So that's actually the secret of getting them when they're not moving because they're still so cold from the night before. Nature's kind of slowed them down for me. So that's actually what I would do with that. I'm not one I will never manipulate anything. I won't chill something down. I won't like spray water on it. So everything I do is done right there. And, you know, sometimes it can be really hard to find a photograph in something or

Steve Vaughan (18:51)
Yeah.

Nick Church (18:51)
That's a great

tip.

Steve Vaughan (18:58)
Hmm.

Victoria (19:09)
find a way to do it. And I don't even garden around, so I quite often shoot through foliage and stuff as well to create that almost looking into the habitat type image.

Nick Church (19:21)
But this is how you're getting this

Steve Vaughan (19:21)
Mm.

Nick Church (19:23)
lovely pastily sort of vignette to the photos. I think that's what makes them really artistic. I some of these, I was seeing some of the flowers and that mushroom or tostle, that clearly is in beautiful light. And that's the thing that for most photographers, they'd look around and they would see that, wow, that's an incredible shot. And you could then go and get it, but it's much more difficult, presumably, when it's an insect to coincide.

Victoria (19:29)
Mm.

Nick Church (19:50)
a really interesting looking insect and it being in lovely light because the two just aren't in your control like they are with the flower. So is it just sheer patience that you have to have to use to do that?

Victoria (20:02)
it is a lot of it is patience and finding the right subject. Not every animal or species you come across is going to work for a photograph. mean, I've looked at some and gone, looks really beautiful. However, the light is completely wrong. can't get in it without putting my shadow over it, or I can't get the angle without moving stuff. And at that point I will just leave it and find something else. I won't push to try and find something that is not going to be there for me.

Steve Vaughan (20:26)
Right.

Nick Church (20:32)
Yeah. Yeah, that's interesting. I suppose that we all sort of have that of, we would just, if I'm trying to take a shot, let's say a commercial shot or a wedding or a portrait or something, if it isn't working, you just, you just move on and sometimes you think, right, I'm just going to abandon that. There was a shot the weekend where I wanted to go onto the beach. was two in the afternoon with the clocks having moved forward as well. It's just so bright.

It just wasn't working. was nothing, but you sort of think, right, let's abandon it. But when you've gone out specifically for those shots, you've got to not almost quit so easy. You have to think, hang on, right. Let's think outside the box. What else am I going to get while I'm here?

Victoria (21:11)
Very much so. And so for me, I very rarely go out with a plan of I'm going to photograph this, this and this. It's I'm going to this site and I'm going to see what I can find. Pretty much the only time I would ever go out with a specific plan is I quite often go up, I've not done it for a few years, but I go up and photograph and record a particular toad colony at breeding season. And I am going up for that specific reason. I mean, if I see anything else, great, but

Steve Vaughan (21:38)
right.

Victoria (21:41)
rest of the time I just go out and see what I can find. But what I will say is, so those really bright days, I mean we've had some really gorgeous weather recently, but I actually wouldn't go out on those days. They would not be my photography days of choice. I prefer the days that are a little bit more like today where it's not bright sunny, it's bright but it's not like bright blue skies and sunny. It's like that beautiful lovely diffuse light. They are my go-to days.

Steve Vaughan (22:03)
Hmm.

Victoria (22:09)
because you get this lovely kind of even, soft, almost dreamy light, which you can work with much better. Well, I find I can work with much better.

Steve Vaughan (22:18)
same as wedding photographers, cloudy day row and a bright day.

Nick Church (22:19)
Well, you, and you can,

and you can always see in someone's work. So I can see in your work that in the way that you've approached the edits and everything else that that would be your preferred sort of light. Whereas mine's the opposite hard as possible. But, with, you know, um, low light, low, low sun, know, but strong still, you know, not when it's gone really weak because, cause that's just my style, but everyone's got their own style. can see that that choose, you know, to choose that there's a sunset here the other day.

Victoria (22:28)
Mm.

Yeah.

Steve Vaughan (22:33)
speak for yourself.

Victoria (22:39)
Mm.

Nick Church (22:48)
We've talked to previous episodes of using a Fuji kit, which is smaller. I'll take it out with me wherever I can just to try and get more photography for myself. out on this walk and the sunset was incredible. And it was, was light coming through. Almost anything it hit like hit would hit some stinging nettles and they just look beautiful. That was the one day I didn't have a camera with me. So it was like, my God's sake, I was supposed to be bringing my camera every time. I completely forgot.

Steve Vaughan (23:10)
Ha

Victoria (23:10)
Of course.

Steve Vaughan (23:16)
So tell us a bit about the photographer… sorry the forgotten little creatures project.

Victoria (23:21)
So this actually started, been going for over 10 or about 10 years now. I started it and it actually started off as Project X because I couldn't think of a name for it. So we said, right, just Project X until we come up with the appropriate name. And it actually started because I have a very deep love and connection for particularly frogs, toads, snakes. I do absolutely love them.

You know, in the press and in the media, they always get a really bad rap. You know, only this time of year, you see some of the stuff in the media that's like, oh, this Adder chased my child off the beach and it attacked my dog and this, that and the other. It was like, no, it didn't. You probably poked it with a stick. And it kind of came from that because it was very much a case of, you know, I really want to show the beauty and the importance of all these amazing creatures. So.

Nick Church (24:04)
Attacked my dog! I don't know why that's tickled me.

Victoria (24:21)
The Forgotten Little Creatures really focuses on plants and vertebrates, amphibians and reptiles. That does actually include lichens and fungi, mosses and stuff like that, which is kind of coming into the project now. But it was a way for me to bring everything together. And yes, I love my photography. Yes, I love my science. But you need to find a way to kind of engage with people if you want them to appreciate.

You know, maybe not love, maybe I can't make the whole world love snakes, but maybe I can make them appreciate them a little bit more. So I then brought into it kind of historical facts as well, but also now moving the project forward, I'm actually bringing folklore into that. So it's really about celebrating all of those species and all the different ways that we can and saying that they're absolutely vital to their ecosystem or their habitats, indicator species.

Yeah, they also pollinate as everyone goes on about bees and butterflies. But, you know, beetles, grasshoppers, crickets, they all help pollinate as well. So it's, you know, and we need, you know, we've got the snakes that help keep like small rodent populations down. know, amphibians eat quite a lot of mosquitoes and stuff as well. So it's all hand in hand. And the beautiful wildflowers we have. And I mean, right now we're coming into bluebell season.

Steve Vaughan (25:20)
Hmm.

Mm.

Of course,

Victoria (25:46)
Everyone loves photographing bluebells.

But we have the majority of the world's population of British bluebells in the UK, but the damage that we're causing by going out and photographing them is becoming irreversible. But historically, they actually used to use the sap from the bulbs to actually attach flights to arrows and stuff and book binding.

Steve Vaughan (26:10)
Is that right?

Nick Church (26:11)
I didn't

know that.

Victoria (26:12)
There's so much really interesting historical stuff and folklore and also kind of medicines and stuff like that within that project. It just became something that over time I became more and more interested in. And it has really helped to change people's minds. And there's a big part of that about gardening for wildlife as well. And a lot of people as a result of this have contacted me and said, look, we've created this little wild spot. We've put a pond in, which is amazing. And that's...

That's such a big part of the project.

Nick Church (26:44)
So is that the goal of the project then to this, this raising of awareness or other, other, um, like deliverables that, because you had the book, right? mean, the book, the book was out what, 20, 2000, no, 2017. Yeah. Um, so what, what's the, was, was this ongoing project part of the plan or is it just something that you become really passionate about and you're, you're, you're just seeing where, where it takes you?

Steve Vaughan (26:44)
I'm out.

Victoria (26:57)
2017, yeah.

Steve Vaughan (26:57)
17.

Victoria (27:11)
It's a bit of just seeing kind of where it goes and the direction it leads me down, to be honest. you know, the book was a really kind of big part of that because a lot of people have kind of purchased that book. They've taken it home and gone, you know, wow, we could have this stuff in our garden or, you know, this is probably on our doorstep because everything in the first book was within 40 miles of my house and fruit. There's nothing exotic in there. It is all local species.

Steve Vaughan (27:36)
wow.

Victoria (27:41)
But there's also a few, I put a few tips and tricks in there for photographers, but the book is aimed at absolutely everybody. And I know even children that have had it and they've absolutely loved it, particularly the invertebrate part and the snakes. They love that probably much to their parents dismay. But now it's very much, yeah, I've got a lot of people asking me when is book two coming out? And like after the first book, I was kind of, don't know where to take the project, but it's...

Steve Vaughan (27:57)
You

Victoria (28:10)
gradually evolved itself and I've had a bit of a change of direction in my career and I'm focusing a lot more on artwork now and that's actually becoming a very big part of the project and that is connecting me with organizations across the world. So I'm working with a very small team in Mexico that do amphibian and reptile conservation. I now work alongside Falklands Conservation, Frog Life in this country, Heal Somerset, a group in Colombia.

as well. So it's kind of growing by itself and taking me along with it, if that makes sense.

Steve Vaughan (28:48)
interested in your artwork because I'm a scientist by the way, so there's another scientist here Nick, although I'm a chemist but I was always interested in natural product chemistry so there's a bit of a link to what you were saying there. But people who've got a scientific background in my experience aren't necessarily always artistic, that goes for me, I'm a technical nerdy photographer but my wife's the arty one. So you know how do the arts come into your work and what you spend your time doing?

Victoria (28:53)
Yeah.

Steve Vaughan (29:17)
I'm curious as to that evolved really.

Victoria (29:20)
I think I'm one of those very, very weird people, a very lucky person as far as I'm concerned. There's very much the scientist part of me, but I'm also very artistic and creative. But with my artwork, pretty much the same with my photography, it's not what I would call kind of identification or like guidebook artwork. It does actually go down the route of being a bit more creative. And to be honest, I kind of in a bizarre way was

Steve Vaughan (29:41)
Right.

Victoria (29:49)
a little bit forced into it. So I had an injury and some major surgery a few years ago and just been struggling a bit with that. But I just needed to do something. So I was like, well, what can I do? Because I can't sit and do nothing. I'm absolutely rubbish at doing that. So I just started drawing again and I made little needle felted sculptures as well. it's just last two years, it's really taken off. And I mean, my drawings are all colored pencil on various colored papers.

My little sculptures are made from ethically sourced wool, but I try and keep all those, like my beliefs, my ethics actually go through all of my artwork as well. But that's what's enabled me to connect with all these organizations that I'm now working with, interestingly, not the photography, but actually the artwork.

Steve Vaughan (30:39)
That's

interesting.

Nick Church (30:41)
The needlework, when I was creating this slideshow that we're playing now, I actually had one in there and I should have kept it in there, but it was so detailed, I thought I just assumed it was a photo at first glance. It was of owls, a couple of owls.

Victoria (30:59)
The little owls. Yeah.

Nick Church (31:00)
Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. just, yeah, yeah, we will link to the, to the website. because yeah, that, that, that, was, yeah, really incredible, incredible work. The, you're, you also do, so, you know, you've got, the, project, the forgotten little creatures project, you're, you, you still create your own, photos.

Steve Vaughan (31:03)
We'll link to the website on the show notes so people can find them here.

Nick Church (31:28)
and photography outside of that. And you've got the needlework aspects, which is part of the project as well. I understand you do workshops and that kind of thing as well. Is that something you'd like to talk about? How does that fit in?

Victoria (31:39)
Yeah,

I do. actually since, because I predominantly concentrate on my artwork now, my photography, feel a bit freer. I don't feel so constrained. I need to be creating this, that or the other, and there's no time scales. So I'm actually excited to go back to doing the more creative artistic photography that I love. And this year I'm actually running, I've actually done it for the last couple of years. I've got some Sigma master classes, but this year we're actually really concentrating on the finding art in nature.

So it's how can we be a bit more creative in the field? How can we create something a little bit different in the field when we're there? There's probably actually a really good time to say that the images that I take are barely edited at all. I do very little editing on mine because I just hate sitting in front of my computer, to be honest, when I can be outside. But for me, the challenge was always getting it right in camera. I think probably because I came from a 35 mil background.

Nick Church (32:31)
haha

Steve Vaughan (32:31)
Don't we all? Yeah, absolutely.

Victoria (32:38)
And then through the slide film, I treat the digital the same way. And that's what I kind of encourage people to do. It's let's go out and we're going to try and do all this in camera. So we're going to see what we can do with all of the available lights. And I actually run slightly different ones with green wings and they're all based in some sets. They're all local to me. They're all at sites. I know very, very well because they're the ones I ran the project on. I've been visiting those sites for over 10 years.

So I know when and where to find things. And it's not just about the photographing. is about how do you find these animals in the field? How do you go about it? Because you could walk into a field and see nothing. I could walk into a field and spend probably 10 hours there finding stuff and photographing it. So it's how do we find it to start with? Is it better to use our eyes or?

Nick Church (33:28)
I think that's a great, a

great advert for all workshops, including yours, that often people think, well, I could do that in my own garden. But all of us look into our gardens and think, well, there's nothing there. in any garden, it's not when I do a beginner's photography course, we just wander down the road, just down my street. And there's always stuff to photograph where you look at it right way and train people to see that is such a valuable thing to take away because it's a skill that lasts for the rest of your photography life.

just by doing a workshop and being alongside somebody that's got that vision already. So I that's a really important aspect.

Victoria (34:01)
Very much so. I totally agree. People have come with me and they're like, how do you even find all this stuff? For one, we will spend four hours in one small little part of a field. That's it. And we kind of be like, right, really sorry, but times up and we're still finding stuff. You don't have to go far. Like none of my workshops, we don't, you we maybe walk a couple of kilometers over the entire thing because it's about

Steve Vaughan (34:21)
Amazing.

Victoria (34:32)
seeing what we can find. And that could be anything. So there's nothing specific. You know, we go at certain times I run one in June that's I think that might be the signal one is in June. we are going to look for orchids, but it's whatever else we find out there. You know, there could be so much more out

Steve Vaughan (34:33)
Hmm.

Nick Church (34:48)
Yeah.

Steve Vaughan (34:50)
And the details of these, are they on your website? Where can people find out more about the courses that you do, the workshop?

Victoria (34:57)
Yeah, they're all on my Forgotten Little Creatures website, which is www.forgottenlittlecreatures.com. And if you just go to the event section, they're actually all listed with what each one entails and the links to book as well, because they're actually booked through both Sigma and Greenwings rather than myself now.

Steve Vaughan (35:16)
Great stuff, great, exciting. So what's the future going to hold for you, Victoria? Yeah, what's the future going to be? Where do you see yourself? Where do you see, this is question I always ask, but where do you see your photography and your art for that matter in the next few years?

Nick Church (35:18)
So the, sorry.

Victoria (35:22)
Yeah.

I think they're still very much going to go hand in hand. I'm looking forward to getting out now. We're actually kind of got some spring. know, as Nick said, it has been very cold here overnight. I can attest to that. I really can. went out early yesterday morning and it was very, very cold. You're lucky. I'm really hoping to be able to get back out and really...

Steve Vaughan (35:44)
tropical here in Oxfordshire. No, not really.

Victoria (35:54)
explore how we can be creative with different lenses. So not just looking at using a macro lens, but actually, you know, what if we only have a zoom lens or what if we just have a wide angle? How can we use all those different lenses to actually create kind of these artworks and stuff as well?

Nick Church (36:13)
Victoria, any of our listeners that might be that they don't have, that are professional, don't have huge budgets for photography kits, would you recommend extension tubes and those sorts of things to create a macro effect with a, like a 50mm lens or something?

Victoria (36:32)
Absolutely. you know, I've been a professional photographer, wildlife photographer for the last 20 years. Now I'm pretty much full-time artist, but I can honestly say as most professional wildlife photographers, we don't have a lot of money either. You you certainly, it's not something you get into for the money. That's for sure. But yeah, I mean, I've used extension tubes. You can also get, it's like a screw-in filter for the front of the lens, which is like a little macro kind of, I guess, macro filter you just put on the front.

Nick Church (36:44)
Mm.

Yeah, these little close

up thing, yeah.

Victoria (37:02)
Yeah, yeah, I mean, they're great fun to try out as well. And if you're not sure if you like macro and you want to give it a go, they're probably the best options to go for. know, extension tubes, you get a set of three. If you get, if you buy the set, you get a set of three. And yeah, they're just the really, really good way to kind of have a bit of a play and try things out.

Nick Church (37:13)
Mm.

Yeah, good. Good entry point. Yeah.

Steve Vaughan (37:23)
So I know you were talking at the photography show that was just gone. So, if anybody that is listening to you and wants to see you in action, so to speak, or listen to you, you know, are you going to be at any other events in the near future?

Victoria (37:36)
I mean, I do give talks to club clubs as well. I've got a couple later on in the year. but yeah, I speak to kind of photography groups, photography clubs, wildlife group, basically anyone that's happy to book me, I will speak to them because I absolutely love sharing my passion and helping people if I can as well. in terms of public events.

Steve Vaughan (37:40)
Right.

You

comes across. Yeah. Fantastic.

Victoria (38:03)
I will be at Global Bird Fair this year, but I'm there with my artwork, not my photography.

Steve Vaughan (38:07)
Okay,

Nick Church (38:09)
Well, we'll put

Steve Vaughan (38:09)
right.

Nick Church (38:09)
your website and all these links on, the podcast page for this episode so people can see what's going on. And then also keep checking back with your website and your Instagram and so on. So they can see when new events pop up that they might be interested in.

Victoria (38:16)
Thank you.

I do try and keep it updated as soon as something new comes. Thank you.

Steve Vaughan (38:26)
Victoria, thank you so much for being with us. Yeah, brilliant. Thank

you. Yeah, great. We're going to have another five, 10 minutes, have a quick chat and wind the show up. You're welcome to stay with us and chip in if you feel you know, we've said so much to you people, which is quite common in our case. Are you inspired to go out and start crawling around looking for bugs in your garden now Nick after that? I am.

Victoria (38:38)
you

you

Nick Church (38:46)
I was on, I

was crawling around at this wedding, getting some nice, very nice shallow depth. There was loads of, quite young daffodils and things and it was amazing. So I was, yeah, flat, flat down. I'm sure that it takes me a few seconds longer each time to get up when I do that. As the, every, every new wedding season, I'm not at the stage yet where I need the bridal groom to help me up, but you know, that's, that's where it's hitting.

Steve Vaughan (39:04)
Hey, I'm 10 years older than you.

Nick Church (39:12)
But yeah, so, I, that's one of the things of why I was so frustrated and not having my camera with me when I went out and found it. Cause there was just, there were really a perfect opportunity and I haven't got a macro lens for the Fuji system I have for my Sony. But you know, with the right light, the very, very large aperture lens I've got is got, which do have quite a close focusing distance as well for things that aren't going to move away. It would have been absolutely perfect, but you know, next time.

Steve Vaughan (39:20)
Yeah.

So we haven't got

a macro lens, if we need to do, we don't do sort of ring shots or such, but if we did need to do something reasonably close up at a wedding, the 24 millimeter focus pretty close actually. So that would be our sort of pseudo macro lens.

Nick Church (39:48)
Hmm.

Yeah, all

the, I think all the GM lenses, apart from the 85, which is the close, close focusing of about 10 meters in it. But the 35, 24 and my 7200, the version two of that is that I very rarely bring, I do always bring my 90 mil macro lens with me for weddings and events. Mostly though I use it for, it is just so sharp for a portrait lens. It's just bloody brilliant. So, but the 7200, I find that you can get just really nice and close and get some.

Steve Vaughan (39:56)
Yeah.

I haven't got that lens.

Yeah, I've read that, yeah.

Nick Church (40:22)
Equivalently good effects. If I was doing stuff like Victoria's doing, so fix photos. Sure, I would take out a macro lens specific for that, for events and things, we want to get that kind of effect. It works perfectly.

Steve Vaughan (40:32)
If I wasn't wearing headphones, I'd my fingers in my ears now because we're coming up to our year end and I'm trying to avoid buying gear. You know, Samantha says, no, what you going to buy now? But we haven't got a macro lens. for the Fuji system, the 60mm, if you see that, the 60mm f2.4 is a brilliant sharp lens as a macro lens. It focuses in about a week. Milk turns faster.

Nick Church (40:43)
Oh, I think it's a beautiful lens at that 90 mil. Okay.

Mm.

I've got, I've got, I've

actually got the 56 1.4. Right. Okay.

Steve Vaughan (40:59)
No, it's a 60 millimeter F2 is one of the original, original

lenses they launched when they launched the X-Pro1 about 11 years ago. So it's only a stubby little thing. You're going to have about 300 quid second hand, but it's a beautiful lens. you know, if it's, if you're photographing anything close up that's got, you know, remotely interesting moving around, forget it. Um, cause you won't catch it, but it's a lovely little lens to pick up on the Fuji system. Certainly. So are you, how are you feeling about the Fuji kit now? You, you you're feeling like it's, yeah.

Nick Church (41:05)
All right, okay.

Okay.

Yeah.

Okay, I'll keep an eye out.

Yeah, good. Like it.

Yeah. Yeah. I've, still not used the 56. So I've got the, 33, which is on there almost all the time. Cause I think that's just, I really, really liked that. I really joined that focal length. think it's different from, I've never had a 50 mil equivalent. the, the 23 that I've got as well is really nice. That's, I can imagine when I go, on holiday, those two lenses, I'm sure are going to be in the bag all the time. The 56.

I haven't used that yet. So that's, that's more of a sort of portrait length, length. Um, so we'll see, it's a bit heavier as well. So I'm not sure if that's, that's going to get as much use, but it's certainly something I wanted to have because when I, I do quite like sort of using lenses, like for example, when you go to get some landscapy type shots, I quite like having something a bit different and using a much tighter lens. You know, you get, get different compression and you get some, nice effects. So yeah, no, yeah, love it. Yeah, it's all good.

Steve Vaughan (42:13)
Yeah, absolutely.

Absolutely.

So we don't do politics on the photography pod. However, it would be remiss of us not to notice the words in somewhat of a state of flux right now. Did you notice what I put in the Facebook group today about Sony withdrawing or cancelling orders for the A1 Mark II?

Nick Church (42:39)
Mmm.

Steve Vaughan (42:41)
depends on what you believe in it, but some people say that's because the tariffs coming down the road. without getting into the politics of it, can...

Nick Church (42:47)
Do you think I don't? Yeah, I don't know. I don't know.

I mean, they've not taken everything else off. So it could also be that it's just very popular and they they can't. But you but I noticed that they've withdrawn the preorder at this point, which would be quite unusual if it was just a supply issue. I'm surprised. So yeah, it's a bit unusual is we certainly want to keep an eye on because I think that that A1 version two is going to be that that's top of my list for something I would love to have that I think that's for

Steve Vaughan (42:55)
Yeah, could pick. Yeah.

Mm. Yeah.

Yeah, me too. Love,

but I don't need really. Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Interesting. And there's another topic I noticed as well in a similar vein that came up in a Facebook group I'm a member of, won't remember which one, but somebody was asking about doing a wedding in New York as a UK photographer. And my recommendation to them was don't go near it with a barge pole. Have you ever done any destination weddings at all?

Nick Church (43:17)
Yeah.

Hmm.

Really.

I have in Italy, in only in Europe. So I've a couple in Italy and yeah, no problem. So I had a absolutely fantastic time. think destination weddings were, are always a little bit of a two-edged thing. You can't do that many of them because for most, most of us, I mean, not sure there are some wedding photographers that are, have got the levels of recognition that people are going to pay for them to go to wherever.

Steve Vaughan (43:42)
Right. Yeah.

I'm sure yeah.

Nick Church (44:06)
You know, they want that person to go there for a lot of other couples. They just want somebody. And so you tend a lot of us tend to do it almost at cost. You make sure that you're not paying anything, but you might not actually make a little profit out of it. So you can do a couple and it's genuine saving because you would be going away maybe once or twice a year anyway, but you can't do 10 of them because you you're not saving anything if you wouldn't go away anyway. So, and plus you have to take so much time off.

Steve Vaughan (44:21)
Hmm. Hmm.

No, no, absolutely. I was thinking about it from a different

perspective really, that and that is having lived and worked in the United States myself 20 plus years ago, you can't just rock up in America and start photographing a wedding because you haven't got a visa. You haven't got working permission. So you could risk it by, you know, saying I'm going on holiday for a week. I think, you know, I think it's a risk I wouldn't take these days, I'll be honest.

Nick Church (44:38)
Yeah.

That's what people do is now I think they, yeah, no,

I wouldn't touch it because, yeah, sorry, I went off on a tangent. I have advised the same for some people. The advice to them would be, the advice I could see someone ask this question, people revising, just tell the, is it Homeland Security or whoever it is, the customs, immigration, you're just there to shoot a friend's wedding.

Steve Vaughan (44:53)
Mm.

immigration. Yeah.

Nick Church (45:12)
That's fine. That might work. And if it doesn't, what are you going to do? You're in the small claims court. I just don't think it's worth it. that's something that's clearly got worse in the last, however many months Trump's been in, let's not link the two necessarily. But it has been getting worse in the US for the last 10 years. That's been getting increasingly difficult for people.

Steve Vaughan (45:16)
Well, you're in prison, mate. Yeah.

Yeah, well, yeah.

Hmm. Hmm. And it's just as

difficult here in Europe as well since Brexit, but again, we're not going to do the policy. Are these the kind of things that impact your work at all, Victoria? Do you ever get involved in having to get permits to work anywhere or does that not apply in your...

Nick Church (45:37)
Yeah.

Victoria (45:46)
Yeah, not really so much. The biggest thing that's impacted me are the new rules that came in, I think it was like November time. So I can't ship to the EU now or Europe unless I have a representative in Europe, which I then have to pay for. And I'm like, well, I'm a small business now. That's not going to happen. So really that's the only thing that's impacted me so far. Cause I don't, I used to guide, but I don't guide like holidays anymore. Just because of

Steve Vaughan (46:00)
really?

Hmm.

Victoria (46:15)
ongoing health issues but I don't know if that's actually going to impact stuff like wildlife holiday trips as well. think it's not really made much difference to Europe but I've heard rumours that there's going to be this visa you have to pay for to go to Europe coming in later this year and whether that also has an impact, I don't know.

Steve Vaughan (46:17)
too.

Right.

Yep.

It's a point. Yeah. It's crazy on a certain world, isn't it, guys? Yeah, we could.

Victoria (46:40)
Definitely.

Nick Church (46:40)
The other thing

that I saw Steve this week, I was on another podcast that mentioned this, this, there's more than one, did you know there's more than one? It was, I'll show you, if you come across the Sigma BF camera, yeah. So let me just share this so that people watching on YouTube can see. It's just quite a fascinating idea really.

Steve Vaughan (46:46)
Another podcast, how dare you? No, I never realised.

Victoria (46:48)
you

Steve Vaughan (46:57)
I have, yeah.

Nick Church (47:09)
It's very much a sort of if Apple made cameras kind of kind of approach. So it's very, you know, very, engineered, you know, sort of, sort of, you know, very, very nice and, shiny, not particularly tactile, but then that's what they said about iPhones, wasn't it? But the iPhone wouldn't take off because you it's really hard edged and everything else. So it's an L L-mount, right? It's an L-mount, system. yeah, I think, yes, it looks, it does look really nice. I can't say I'm tempted, but

Steve Vaughan (47:13)
Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. It's a beautiful thing. Yeah.

I'd drop it in about five

minutes probably because he's so slippy and shirly.

Nick Church (47:39)
Yeah, that's, that's, that's the trouble. It's like an iPhone. As soon

as you drop it, it's like, right. The whole thing's ruined because it's got a scratch on it. So it is more of a accessory rather than a tool, isn't it? A camera like this, but I guess they're going up against like, um, maybe the Fuji a hundred, you know, X hundred, you know, that, that, kind of, um, look, although, although this has got an interchangeable lens. Um, but yeah, I thought that was quite an interesting product. I'd not, I'd not actually come across it.

Steve Vaughan (47:51)
Yeah, I did.

Yeah, possibly.

Nick Church (48:06)
I seem to have missed all of the, obviously not my algorithm. They obviously don't think that I'm in the market for it. So I haven't been sort of spammed anything about this. Yeah. Well, that's all right. I put, I'm open for collabs. That's fine. Bring it on.

Steve Vaughan (48:12)
It will be napped to this podcast, you'll be bombarded with Sigma stuff.

Victoria (48:14)
Yeah

Steve Vaughan (48:20)
I think it's brave. I think it's unusual. think the idea is it's got a much more of a simplified menu, I think, as well. So it's got no SD card. Everything's built into the camera. What would put me off if I wanted to explore anything a different from a Sigma is it's just a bog standard 24 megapixel Bayer sensor in there, whereas some of their earlier cameras had the Foveon sensors, which have a very different way of working. Now, I'm not technical enough to understand that, but from what I understand of them,

Nick Church (48:27)
Mm.

Okay.

Steve Vaughan (48:49)
they render in much more filmic look. people who use them and you can pick them up on eBay quite cheaply. And again, they're not fastest focusing things, but they've got a particular look about their imagery, which like people say about CCD sensors as well. They have much more of filmic look about them. Yeah. I don't know this one has now. I this is a bog standard now. think it's probably a bog standard Sony sensor inside. Yeah.

Nick Church (48:51)
Yeah.

Well, think, yeah, I think, I think this has got a CCD. Oh, is it not? Oh, okay. Oh, right. Okay.

So that's, yeah. But you know, I think any company and we said the same about the, Fuji, um, X what's that? Yeah. I think doing something that there's no point just doing the same thing that the other companies are doing. There's no point competing. We didn't have to, let's create different stuff. And that just creates a much more wide variety of products for people to decide what's right for them.

Steve Vaughan (49:19)
GFX. Yeah.

Nick Church (49:31)
And I think that's great.

Steve Vaughan (49:33)
All

for it. Yeah. It's like when I do business coaching for photographers and other businesses for that money, what makes you different? You know, what makes you different in the crowded market? I mean, how many cameras out there, you know, can't, it's like cars, you can't buy a bad car now. I don't think anyway, you can't buy bad cameras. So what makes this particular product different from everything else? And it's the same for us in as small businesses. If we don't know what makes us different from all the other people out there doing remotely similar things to us, then how could we expect our customers to know that as well? Really? Yeah.

Nick Church (49:41)
Hmm.

all about

creating a feeling, isn't it? If you create a feeling in someone that's going to buy something and a product like that, we've just seen that that is going to do that. And it may not be for me or you or, know, but there will be people that will. And that might be if you've got the money to splash on it, that could be an entry point into photography for someone that's never even had a camera before, because it's just something a bit different.

Steve Vaughan (50:04)
Yeah, it is. Yeah.

Absolutely. Yeah. Fashion accessory. Yeah.

One.

Victoria (50:22)
Did you actually get to see it? I was gonna say, did you actually get to see it at the photography show?

Steve Vaughan (50:22)
so go ahead, Victoria. Yeah. Yeah. No.

Nick Church (50:24)
I haven't...

No. No, didn't see it.

Steve Vaughan (50:29)
to you.

Victoria (50:30)
Okay, so Sigma actually had it on their stand. It is a very, very interesting concept because the whole thing is actually made from like, like each one is individually made from that and it is one as like, there's nothing kind of is based one piece of like metal, if you like, but it's heavy. I was really surprised. I was surprised at how heavy it actually was.

Nick Church (50:32)
Mm.

Steve Vaughan (50:37)
It's great.

Amazing.

Nick Church (50:54)
Hmm.

Steve Vaughan (50:54)
Is it?

All right.

Victoria (50:59)
picked it up, was like, wow, I'm expecting it to be lighter. And it wasn't, it was really heavy. It's interesting. I've seen some of the images that have come from it. And I had a bit of a play with it. And it is definitely a very interesting concept and interesting idea. So it'd be interesting to see how it goes. But it is definitely heavy.

Steve Vaughan (51:04)
That's interesting. Yeah.

Nick Church (51:18)
I'm sure

Steve Vaughan (51:18)
Mm.

Nick Church (51:22)
it's that, but that I can, I can understand that. I think people that they want this almost, like an item of jewelry is like a really expensive watch. They're quite like the weight of it. You know, you can make watches really light and as part of it, people that buy this, suspect may not be that fussed about pixel peeping, guessing, but that, and they only make very few. think there's, there can be very limited numbers because they, they are difficult to make.

Steve Vaughan (51:33)
Yeah.

No.

Nick Church (51:47)
Um, so that, that I current what the status, so this is completely wrong. Something like, like 10 or a hundred a year or something like that. They can't, they can't expand to, big numbers. So I don't think it's going to be something that you see that everybody's having, but, um, yeah, nonetheless, interesting.

Steve Vaughan (52:01)
I you don't buy Rolex until the time do you? You buy that kind of thing because it appeals to you from a brand association kind of thing. Can I just do a shout out to a listener that's recently joined the Facebook group as well, David Bostock, who's a wedding photographer near to me here, Leeds based just north of Bambria. I know if you know David. He won the Guards of Brides customer service awards for photography a couple of weeks ago. every year for the last seven years, Sam and I have been nominated for the

Nick Church (52:04)
That's right.

Yeah.

Steve Vaughan (52:30)
the Arch of Brides Awards, which is the only awards that we do. We don't do the hitch to the money stilettos and all those ones, because lots of them are the wedding industry awards. You have to pay to get in, which I always think is a bit dodgy really. Whereas this one is nominated by your customers and it's based on your reviews and people who nominate you. so say we've been looking for the last seven years to get, we find lists and we've won the award ourselves three years, but this time we were asked to be judges.

Nick Church (52:39)
Hmm. Yeah.

Steve Vaughan (52:54)
And was really weird being on the other side of the table really. And I have to say all credit to the guys at Guy's Brides. The process was absolutely, what's the word I want, rigorous, fair. We didn't judge photographers that would have been unfair. So we do make-up artists and all that kind of stuff. And David won, and all credit to himself because it's a great prize to win. But it was a bit weird being in the awards and not having the anticipation of, we won. No, we didn't. No, not as judges. would have been a bit...

Nick Church (52:54)
wow.

Well done David.

Could you not enter this year as you were...

That'd be hard. Yeah, I think that'd be difficult for them to justify that. you'd, you'd say, well, it's us again. For makeup artists, hairdressing, cake, all Sam and Steve photography is amazing, really.

Steve Vaughan (53:27)
Yeah. And the winner is me! No, it doesn't...

Victoria (53:35)
you

Steve Vaughan (53:37)
It

wasn't like it's strictly I wasn't there going seven, you know, it was all done beforehand. So because they have to order the awards and things, but it was good. you know, shout out to the guys there. It's a nice excuse to see lots of people we know in the industry. Sam gets to buy a new outfit and I get to squeeze into my dinner jacket one more time. So yeah, good night and well done, David. Congratulations back. So anything else we want to talk about or have we done this week?

Nick Church (53:54)
Good stuff. Yeah. Well done, David. All right. No, think, I think we're

done. So it's just as always huge. Thank you to everyone for downloading this podcast website. As I mentioned last week is now www.thephotographypod.co.uk. You can go straight there and you see all the episodes and you can email us at studio at the photography pod.co.uk any suggestions, any

interviewee suggestions, any guests you want us to have, anything you want to talk to talk for us to talk about. Just let us know any feedback, good or bad, we love it. So bring it on.

Steve Vaughan (54:31)
And again, massive thank you to you, Victoria, for being on with us. There's a hover fly just outside my window, so I'm going to hop out there now get my camera out and see if I can capture him in mid-flight. I don't have much chances. So yeah, thanks again for joining us, Lister. Don't forget to give us a review on Spotify or Apple if you've enjoyed today's podcast. We'll be back in a couple of weeks time, but until then, happy photographing out there and we'll talk to you soon.

Nick Church (54:34)
Thanks, Peter.

Yeah.

Victoria (54:38)
Good luck.

Nick Church (54:43)
Yeah.

Bye bye.