Episode 3: Steve Gerrard - Music and Wedding Photographer Based in Montreal

In this episode, Steve and Nick chat with acclaimed Music, Gig and Wedding Photographer Steve Gerrard. 

From spinning records for Oasis at Wembley Stadium to capturing the essence of live music and weddings through his lens, Steve Gerrard shares his photographic journey. We explore his transition from a globetrotting DJ to a professional photographer based in Montreal, delving into how his background in concert photography influences his unique style in wedding shoots. Steve offers insights on the challenges of getting bands to pay for photos and how he's managed to blend music and wedding photography to create vibrant, life-filled images.

This episode also takes a deep dive into the world of music photography, discussing the emotional and technical challenges of capturing renowned musicians like Pearl Jam and Taylor Swift. We touch on the business aspects of concert photography, the importance of storytelling, and the intricate balance between the thrill of being close to iconic figures and the demands of the job.

 The team also discuss the potential US market restrictions on DJI drones, our latest  weddings, camper van shoots, and a surprise celebrity wedding. Other topic include a hilarious wardrobe mishap and an unexpected firmware update saga, while Nick tells the his story of unknowingly photographing England rugby player Johnny May's wedding.  Plus, our regular features of the Ten Minute Tech Talk, Movie of the week and Industry News. 

Nick Church and Steve Vaughan are professional wedding photographers based in the UK. They both use Sony Alpha cameras and lenses.

Nick's website : https://www.nickchurchphotography.co.uk/
Nick's Instagram : https://www.instagram.com/nickchurchphotography/

Steve's website : https://www.samandstevephotography.com/
Steve's Instagram : https://www.instagram.com/samandstevephotography/

Any technical information given by the presenters is based on their understanding and opinion at the time of recording

Chapters

• 0:09 Photography Pod Hosts Steve and Nick
• 5:39 Photographer's Evolution Through Music and Weddings
• 17:48 Capturing Music Through Photography
• 25:12 Music Photography Business Strategies and Experiences
• 28:36 Photographing Musicians
• 39:46 Photographers' Experiences With Bands
• 44:13 Technology, Cameras, and Photography Discussions

Transcript

Steve Vaughan (00:01.23)
Hello again and welcome back to the photography pod, a podcast for photographers, both working professionals and enthusiasts alike. My name's Steve Vaughan. Hey Nick, how you doing mate? How's things?

Nick Church (00:09.43)
And I'm Nick Church.

Well, I'm trying to avoid saying the same thing every time, which is really busy, but in particular, I am particularly busy because I've got, I know, I know I shouldn't, but it's pretty robust, isn't it? And we always complain when we're too busy and then complain when there's no bookings. So I'm up your way tomorrow. So I'm in Bambri shooting a wedding. I know. So I'm, I'm tramping on your welch rod and turf in Oxfordshire tomorrow. Then I have a wedding back in Somerset on Friday.

Steve Vaughan (00:16.046)
Don't knock it, if you're busy it's good.

Yeah, it is.

Steve Vaughan (00:28.11)
How dare you?

Ooh.

Nick Church (00:39.448)
camper van shoot on Saturday and an evening event on Friday and an evening event on Saturday that we're shooting for a, it's a friend of mine's 50th birthday. So that's a completely random selection of things. And that's what my summer's like at the moment, which is great. is, I love the variety of it.

Steve Vaughan (00:41.059)
No way.

Steve Vaughan (00:48.526)
Gosh.

Steve Vaughan (00:56.13)
That's good. And actually, course, that was last week because they were recording this a week early. So all those things have happened by the time people hear this podcast. So yeah, it's.

Nick Church (01:00.92)
That's right.

That's very true. that's very true. Or any other news references will be a week out of date as well.

Steve Vaughan (01:09.388)
That's right. Yeah. It's that confusing thing about record set time and publish time, which does my head in the time. So, we got a week off. we w we did have a week off, weekend off from weddings. We've got no weddings this weekend. We've got a wedding fair, which, even though we're not sort of chasing business any much, we're still doing a couple of wedding fairs around places that we would like working. and, do a other bits and pieces as well. Samantha's off to Florida in a couple of weeks time, my jam is so, so my wife's heading off to the States. We've got best friends from

Nick Church (01:35.458)
wow.

Steve Vaughan (01:38.648)
we used to live in America a few years ago and they've retired to Florida so we get a free holiday to Florida apart from the flights of course but I've got to stop here and look after the dogs look at me but no no it's always works that way yeah they're her dogs but I have to look after them so so I hope she's not listening to this you'll kill me

Nick Church (01:45.784)
Yeah. Did you draw straws or how did that work?

Nick Church (01:57.37)
The other things I've done today are I took the, which is one of the bravest moves for photographers to upgrade the firmware on my Sony's. I take a very kind of risk versus reward approach to update the firmware. But because of the issues I had last week, which hopefully no one noticed too much, but my camera kept dying. So it was overheating. I'm hoping that that will be, I know, hoping that will be fixed. And the other thing is you were very,

Steve Vaughan (02:05.375)
brave man.

Steve Vaughan (02:10.072)
Okay.

Steve Vaughan (02:17.121)
you

Don't tell secrets.

Nick Church (02:27.466)
rude about my t -shirt last week. I had a t -shirt with the view meters on it, which was a bit on brand, but my washing machine agreed with you and it tore it to pieces. yeah, so I thought you'd be pleased to hear that. I know, I know. But I was disappointed. It was my first wear and it was from my sister -in -law. So I was a bit disappointed. get another one just for you. So tell me, Steve, have you ever shot, this is Steve Vaughan I'm talking to now. Have you ever shot?

Steve Vaughan (02:31.0)
VU meter on. Yeah, I did.

Steve Vaughan (02:36.564)
really? A self -sensory washing machine, yeah, I it.

Steve Vaughan (02:47.199)
All right, get your money back or replace the washing machine.

Nick Church (02:57.873)
any celebrities or anyone well known in your exploits.

Steve Vaughan (03:00.48)
Not intentionally, no. No, I think the most exciting people we've ever had at a wedding was Alan Sugar's sister. Would you believe that's not particularly exciting? You've to tell me you've shot Royal Family now or something.

Nick Church (03:12.652)
Well, most, most weekends I do an A -lister of some sort. it's well, no, I did, I did once and it, the, the daft thing was I didn't even realize it was someone famous. So was only when we were having our wedding consultation meeting where we go through group shots and things like that. And the groom asked me if I could take a shot of their, the, the, the groom and his groomsman's shoes. And I asked why would, why would that be? Because it seemed like you have some odd requests at weddings, but that was, that was unusual.

Steve Vaughan (03:16.395)
okay, there we go. Yeah.

Steve Vaughan (03:26.85)
Yeah.

Nick Church (03:40.596)
And he said that they had a shoe sponsor. so I just had to, I had, said, well, what job do you do then Johnny? And it was Johnny May, the England top scorer, winger rugby, rugby union winger. So, so yeah, so that, I had no clue until virtually the week before the wedding.

Steve Vaughan (03:44.12)
shoe sponsor.

Steve Vaughan (03:50.701)
All right.

Steve Vaughan (03:54.252)
Wow.

Steve Vaughan (03:59.959)
I probably wouldn't know him if I walked next to him really because I'm a ramblin' rather than an overball man. But yeah, exciting, yeah.

Nick Church (04:06.178)
I think you might though. He's ridiculously handsome, but his, and to this day, interesting, interesting, fun fact, the top hits for my website, people, you know, you can search how people come to your website. It's Johnny May's wife is the, is the search term that leads the most number of people to my website. So it was quite good for my essay. She's lovely. They're both a really lovely couple actually, but yeah, yeah, I suspect so. But anyway, so talking of.

Steve Vaughan (04:15.958)
Hmm. Yeah, yeah.

Steve Vaughan (04:21.015)
Hahaha.

Is he particularly famous and glamorous or what is it about his wife? Okay, yeah.

Nick Church (04:33.166)
that's shooting people that are well known. That brings us onto today's guest, because we have with us a photographer called Steve Gerard, who I'm very excited to have on the show. Steve's a music photographer, but does weddings and portraiture as well. He basically does it all. And infuriatingly, he's the master of, the jack of all trades master of done doesn't apply because you look through his website, it's just fantastic photography.

Steve Vaughan (04:44.748)
Me too.

Steve Vaughan (05:02.069)
Absolutely.

Nick Church (05:02.666)
across any genre. Which yeah, so I do recommend people go and take a look at his website, which is Steve Gerard .com, I believe. Steve, welcome to the show.

Steve Gerrard (05:13.556)
Thank you for having me. Nice to be here.

Nick Church (05:16.214)
Well, you're more than welcome. So you're based in Montreal, is that right?

Steve Gerrard (05:23.22)
I am sunny Montreal today. a beautiful day. I'm originally from the UK, from Chester, lived in Birmingham for most of my life and then came over here 10 years ago.

Nick Church (05:26.551)
Is it?

Steve Vaughan (05:33.194)
Hey, nothing wrong with that. stick together West Bedlam boys, yeah.

Steve Gerrard (05:39.528)
Yeah, actually, I lived about five minutes from the Villa get the Villa ground. Yeah.

Steve Vaughan (05:43.266)
Did you? Okay. We'll have a whole another conversation about that another time. Yeah. We should have a point of order actually, before we go any further. We've got two Steve's on this particular podcast. So I think we perhaps we might make name, make it say Steve G or Steve V or Steve Gerard or Steve Vaughan. And I'll take us back seat on that one. Yeah.

Nick Church (05:45.934)
And you both...

Nick Church (05:59.608)
Good idea, good idea. So Steve G. like many professional photographers, photography wasn't the first thing that you started working on, but yours was a bit, mostly as IT or sales like Steve or something else. Yours, you were a DJ working around Europe, is that right?

Steve Gerrard (06:23.91)
Well, around the world actually. Yeah, I DJed all over the world for several years. My love of music kind of took me away from Birmingham and DJed all kinds of random places from China and Argentina to Australia and Moscow. I also opened for Oasis at Wembley Stadium, which is kind of a big deal, which is very, very cool. Obviously everyone's talking about Oasis at the moment.

Steve Vaughan (06:25.506)
Wow.

Nick Church (06:25.698)
Wow.

Steve Gerrard (06:53.204)
but yeah, to be honest, my traveling around the world was part of how my love of photography grew. I've always been like a viewer of photography rather than like a participant in it up until about 20 years ago. I always loved photography books and things like that. And I had my favorite photographers, but didn't really take pictures of any worth. But then because I was traveling, I was like,

I really need to be documenting these places that I'm going to and exploring them with a purpose. So photography kind of gave me a purpose to get out there and explore these places rather than just walking around looking like some person who's lost in the middle of China. Having a camera and a reason to be walking around kind of worked for me. And then I just kind of got the bug and then my love of photography meant

Nick Church (07:39.789)
You

Steve Gerrard (07:50.856)
that I wanted to start shooting bands when they were playing in Birmingham or wherever. And, I think it's just kind of spiraled from there really. And I haven't looked back.

Nick Church (08:00.898)
Fantastic. And the bands, the photography of bands, it said, and when you say that, mean, do you mean the live music or sort of band portraits and things?

Steve Vaughan (08:01.848)
Amazing.

Steve Gerrard (08:09.854)
Well, it started off just live music, just getting down in the pit, seeing my favorite bands and taking my camera with me with permission rather than trying to sneak it in like it used to. I had a few tricks for getting my camera into gigs early on when I was just taking pictures for fun, but then it became more of a deliberate thing. And then as soon as that kind of started taking off and people started noticing my...

Nick Church (08:21.506)
Yeah.

Steve Gerrard (08:38.612)
concert photography, then people started saying, we need some new pictures of our band for MySpace. Yeah, let's just date us. Yeah. And then, you know, that led into all kinds of other photography, but like you mentioned, know, do Jack of all trades, probably Master of Sum. But yeah, the common theme is people. So even though I shoot weddings and portraits and

Steve Vaughan (08:46.51)
MySpace remember that gosh yeah yeah

Steve Gerrard (09:08.422)
all that kind of it started out in the music side and then kind of branched.

Nick Church (09:12.408)
Yeah. And that, that's certainly where I've, I've sort of seen you first was the music photography and just loved it and viewed upon it with absolute envy. cause that, I think when I started, was something that like a few photographers I've spoken to is something that people get into. And I think it's because bands are always up having photos. It's quite hard, certainly in the UK, as you know, compared with some like America for people to have their photos taken. Cause we're not naturally

the sort of characters like having a picture taken, but bands always need photos. The problem is they haven't got any money to spend on it. that was my, you know, so to see, thought there must be a way that, you know, there must be people that do take these amazing shots. And that's why I first came across your work. But looking through your website, I can see that you do the weddings and portraiture as well. And I think if people do, the listener wants to have a look, then go onto SteveJerrod .com because I think the shots are just fantastic.

Steve Vaughan (09:43.489)
Absolutely.

Nick Church (10:09.43)
vibrant and full of life and colour. I really love the treatments you put on them. And that there's real consistency across those genres. Is that something Steve that you're intentionally aiming to do? is it just something that evolves?

Steve Vaughan (10:13.858)
Totally agree. Yeah.

Steve Gerrard (10:22.876)
It was, it definitely evolved. Like when I started doing weddings, I think I was kind of trying to take pictures of what, what I thought people wanted and just kind of very traditional, you know, the kind of checklist of wedding photos, if you will. And then it was somebody said to me, this music side of what you do is very cool. I don't see any of that in your wedding photography. Why don't you try?

Steve Vaughan (10:52.109)
Hmm

Steve Gerrard (10:53.018)
injecting that into weddings. And to be honest, at the time I was like, how the hell do I make, like, where's, there's no, there doesn't seem to be any like comparison there, they're completely different things. But I think the moment that something clicked with me was when I was taking pictures of a groom and his groomsmen and suddenly realized that I was doing it in exactly the same way as I would be doing a band with a front, with a front man. And then.

You know, just made them look cool, which is what Grimmson wanted. They just want to look cool. And then I was like, okay, maybe I can start trying things that other people are not doing and being a bit quirky, you know, depending on the, on the client, if they'd be up for that. And then that kind of helped me to start to stand out in wedding photography, which, which was hard then and it's even harder now.

Nick Church (11:47.448)
Yeah.

Steve Vaughan (11:48.119)
Hmm.

Absolutely, yeah.

Steve Gerrard (11:51.944)
Yeah. And then, I found myself enjoying wedding photography a lot more once I started to kind of just go, you know what? I can do whatever I want. And if people like it, they, like it. And some people will, and some people won't.

Nick Church (12:01.24)
That's right.

Steve Vaughan (12:02.124)
Yeah, absolutely. What's the split, Steve? Sorry, is there like a split between weddings and bands? What's the split there?

Nick Church (12:04.672)
It's always the white, isn't it? you're... Sorry, Steve.

Steve Gerrard (12:12.108)
financially, there's a big split. Yeah, weddings definitely helps pay the bills. Not as you mentioned, but you know, in music photography, there's bands that don't have a lot of money. Occasionally somebody comes along who's got a decent budget or maybe it's the magazine or the management that we've got a decent budget. But a lot of the time people are really kind of trying to get value for money.

Steve Vaughan (12:15.265)
I'll bet.

Yeah.

Steve Gerrard (12:40.798)
but because I love it, then I quite often try and help them out. As far as time is concerned, I spend a lot more time shooting music than I do weddings. I spend a lot more time editing weddings than I spend editing music.

Steve Vaughan (12:55.267)
interesting.

Steve Vaughan (12:59.128)
Yeah, don't we all? Fascinating, yeah.

Steve Gerrard (13:03.24)
Yeah. Yeah, so.

Nick Church (13:05.174)
Is your kit the same Steve, between the different genres? Are you using the same camera setup? Lenses?

Steve Gerrard (13:08.648)
Yeah. Yeah. Same, same cameras. Usually for concert photography, you're not allowed to use any flash. It's kind of the industry rule, three songs, no flash. So you get the first three songs of a set and you're not allowed to use flash. Occasionally you are allowed, but it's quite rare, especially in Montreal. I used to be able to use flash more when I was in the UK, if I needed to, but to be honest, it kind of kills the vibe a lot of the time if you start using flash at concerts.

Steve Vaughan (13:34.434)
Hmm, sure. Yeah.

Nick Church (13:34.734)
Absolutely, I can imagine.

Steve Gerrard (13:39.366)
Yeah, but the same cameras, I've always been Canon since day one. I'm kind of lazy when it comes to gear. If it works, it works.

Steve Vaughan (13:45.803)
Yeah, absolutely.

Nick Church (13:48.078)
Yeah. It looks like you're what 24 mil a lot of the time that kind of focal length for your wedding stuff.

Steve Gerrard (13:55.432)
Forth.

A mix, usually primes, I do kind of stick with primes, but I mix it between 24, 35, 50 and 85. I do have a 7200 that I drag out if I can't get close to the action. But that's the only reason really. And that's the same for concert photography. If I'm shooting a big festival or an arena, then the 70 to 200 comes out. But most of time I'll stick to the primes if I can.

Steve Vaughan (14:24.942)
Steve, you made it sound very matter of fact about the process of getting into band photography, but I know lots of photographers who cut their arm off to get the opportunity to photograph bands. just a bit more about how you actually made the transition from being the DJ to being allowed into the pit. That's not simple thing. So how did that actually happen? What was the process that sort of got you in there?

Nick Church (14:25.079)
I mean, Steve and I, but...

Steve Gerrard (14:44.712)
Yeah. Well, actually the DJing did have a little bit of input in that because I was, I was, I was already like making connections with venues and clubs because I was DJing. was running club nights. Nick, Nick, actually used to run the Friday nights at Bristol Academy, for, for, for quite a few years. Yeah. So I DJed there, but I was also like the promoter. So because I knew some of those, those people.

Steve Vaughan (14:49.804)
Okay.

Steve Vaughan (14:58.711)
Okay.

Steve Vaughan (15:04.546)
Wow.

Steve Gerrard (15:14.108)
I started to get in because I knew the people at the venues. So actually the first band that I ever shot, usually people, their first band is like their mates band in a garage around the corner or a pub down the road. My first band was Megadeth at Birmingham Academy, which was just because of the connections that I had there because I was running a club night at Birmingham Academy as well as Bristol Academy.

Steve Vaughan (15:17.92)
Right.

Steve Vaughan (15:29.857)
wow! Wow!

Nick Church (15:32.717)
Wow.

Steve Vaughan (15:37.326)
Incredible.

Nick Church (15:43.277)
Yeah.

Steve Gerrard (15:44.543)
But I always say to people, like, if they want to get into photography, as far as shooting concerts is concerned, you just have to reach out to bands who are playing, maybe like smaller bands to begin with. And in return for you offering to give them some photos, like you mentioned, bands need photos, they need content more than ever. They'll put you on the guest list and you just save money getting into the shows. You can go, you kind of have free rein, you can experiment, you can see what your gear can do, you can work with

tricky lighting, is like the thing that you have to get over with concert photography. You don't have any control over lighting or things like that. You can't tell people, can you just stand over there when they're in the middle of the guitar solo? So the way to really get into it is to experiment in an environment where you have that freedom to experiment and you don't have three songs and then you're out. So you get getting into it with bands.

Steve Vaughan (16:21.676)
Of course, yeah.

Steve Vaughan (16:37.39)
Got you. Yeah.

Steve Gerrard (16:43.122)
You know, you're not going to make any money to begin with, but you might save a bit of money getting into the gig. As soon as people start asking you to take pictures, because they've seen somebody else's pictures, which that happens quite easily because bands know bands. but as soon as they come to you saying we need some pictures, that's when you start saying, okay, what's your budget? What can you afford? And then it kind of, it kind of goes from there.

Steve Vaughan (17:03.95)
Fantastic.

Nick Church (17:06.827)
And I guess at that point, like you say, you've gone through the, lower pressure shoots where you're doing it for maybe a free entry ticket. And so you haven't got the pressure of, of yeah, exactly. And if it doesn't work out, doesn't work out, but you've learned a bunch from each gig that you do. So by the time you are charging, then then you've got a bit more experience under, under your belt.

Steve Gerrard (17:16.178)
Yeah, or just for fun.

Steve Vaughan (17:29.154)
I suppose it's not a million miles from most people starting doing weddings really. I mean, the first weddings, most people doing me including was to help a mate out and then thought, I quite like doing this. wonder if I can charge for it. So I guess it's not a million miles from that really.

Steve Gerrard (17:40.852)
Yeah, exactly. The first wedding I ever shot, they had a photographer. I didn't know the couple. One of my friends was going to a wedding and I just wanted to kind of try it out. And they were like, yeah, come along. To be honest, I probably overstepped a little mark with the other photographer a little bit. Now I think about it, but I kind of tried to stay out of the way. And then later on, I found out that they liked my pictures more than the photographer they booked.

Steve Vaughan (18:10.263)
Wow.

Steve Gerrard (18:10.369)
which kind of me the confidence to sort of go, okay, maybe I can do this.

Steve Vaughan (18:14.872)
Great stuff.

Nick Church (18:15.008)
I bet you were popular Steve with the other photographer. Who cares?

Steve Gerrard (18:20.591)
We won't say who the other photographer was. I don't even know who the other photographer was.

Steve Vaughan (18:23.554)
Yeah, doesn't matter.

Steve Gerrard (18:25.832)
He's probably retired.

Nick Church (18:25.846)
So you've, you've looking through your portfolio, Steve, you've, you've, worked with, I've got the list goes on. it's metallic. I basically anyone's favorite musician. The likelihood is that you've shot a gig at some point. goes from Snoop Dogg to Metallica to Megadeth, as you've said, Taylor Swift and Justin Bieber, which is pretty much the whole spectrum of music.

Steve Vaughan (18:46.594)
That's quite a spectrum, yeah.

Steve Gerrard (18:47.348)
Yeah. Yeah. When people say, I'll be shouting at bands that I know, when they find out I'm music photographer, at this point, it's kind of easier to say the bands I haven't Even then I struggle a little bit. Yeah, that's it.

Nick Church (18:59.246)
What's your favorite band?

Steve Vaughan (19:00.96)
Wow.

Nick Church (19:05.55)
Do you have, because I was, I already said, I know you're a big Pearl Jam fan as I am. And I recently went to Barcelona to see Pearl Jam because I hadn't seen them for years. And it was just an amazing performance. I was, but I was in, I was sobbing from most of it, completely overwhelmed, you know, and I was just trying to think what would it be like? Cause could see a photographer there and I thought, how, how would that be if I was then in that environment shooting them? How would I separate?

the fan side of me from actually wanting to get the shots. Do you ever find that happens?

Steve Vaughan (19:37.21)
Great question.

Steve Gerrard (19:38.676)
Yeah. I mean, it's not always that you're a fan. sometimes like with I've shot Pearl Jam three times now. And, you know, it's, it's always a buzz just being that close to a band that I love so much. And I've grown up with, went to their first ever UK show that they did back in 92 in Southend on sea. it just, it just was basically a bar with windows all down one side. but sometimes.

Steve Vaughan (19:58.923)
Wow, amazing.

Nick Church (19:59.107)
wow.

Steve Gerrard (20:07.858)
Like I remembered specifically one time I was photographing a band, which one of the people in the band was Slash from Guns N Roses. And I kind of grew up with Guns N Roses as well when I was a kid. And I just remember being, I was in the pits in that little area between the crowd and the stage looking through my camera and the whole frame was just filled with Slash.

Nick Church (20:22.776)
Yeah.

Steve Gerrard (20:36.434)
And I was just like, I can't believe that I'm just this close to this guy who's been part of my musical journey. You you do have those, those kinds of moments. And sometimes it's just, it's not even somebody who maybe a massive fan of, but it's just somebody who the world knows like Taylor Swift. I mean, I do like a lot of Taylor Swift's music, but you know, they've become iconic at this point. Or Paul McCartney, you know, you're photographing a Beatle. You can't, you never get over that really.

Steve Vaughan (20:41.976)
amazing.

Steve Vaughan (20:52.739)
Mm.

Steve Vaughan (21:01.699)
Wow.

Nick Church (21:01.709)
Yeah.

Yeah. No, I can imagine you must get that, that overwhelming sort of sense of, wow, how, know, I've, I've got to this point you're carrying on shooting, but it's a bit of reality check to think where, you know, you've got to be pat yourself on the back to get to that point.

Steve Gerrard (21:17.084)
Yeah. But at the same time, during those three songs, tends to be a bit of a whirlwind. You almost don't hear the music for three songs because you're so focused on where to be and what the light's doing and all the other things that be on your control and trying to make that work. And also as cliche as it sounds, trying to tell a story. And I do try and tell a story with music photography. A lot of people when they're starting out don't.

They just like, this is what the person on stage looked like. And you don't get a sense of what it felt to be like, be at the show. And, that's something that I really try to do. So I get a collection of images that sort of do tell a story. and for those three songs, taking all those things into account and trying to make sure you get what you need. You kind of, kind of like, what did they even play? can't even remember.

Steve Vaughan (22:12.31)
Yeah. So tell me bit more about the storytelling. That's fascinating. So I guess it's not just for three songs, just close up to the guitarist, the lead vocalist, or whatever. You're trying to do a bit more sort of, I guess, the location a little bit or stuff going on around them, I guess, the fans. Isn't that the kind of thing you're doing?

Steve Gerrard (22:31.346)
Yeah, definitely. I shot a bank or rise against on Friday night and amazing live band, great fun to shoot. And, you know, I came back with pictures of the band just before they went on stage at the side of the stage, because I had a bit of extra access for the show. So they kind of warm up then silhouettes using when the lights change, trying to make sure that I.

Steve Vaughan (22:35.276)
Yeah, go to them.

Steve Gerrard (23:00.958)
had pictures of how the lights were working with them. Pictures from the front, pictures from the side, pictures from the back. So I actually was able to get on the back of the stage and shoot towards the crowd, big crowds. So then I was concentrating on what was happening in the crowd and like picking out people who were on people's shoulders or there was like a little kid down the front that was just like totally into it with these arms in the air. And that's always amazing to see. So that's, it's all part of the story. And then taking wider pictures where you can see the band.

Steve Vaughan (23:26.158)
Fantastic.

Steve Gerrard (23:30.548)
and the stage and get a sense of like how that all kind of came together. So, I put, I posted 20 pictures to my Instagram from that show because you can post 20 pictures now. And, hopefully everyone is there for a reason and everyone is slightly different. And when you look at that set of 20, you get a real sense of how it felt to be there rather than just, like I say, what the guitarist looked like.

he was wearing, what guitar he was playing. It's trying to get that variety and give people a sense of, if they were there, remind them of how it felt to be there. And if they weren't there, let them know what they missed.

Steve Vaughan (24:01.75)
Amazing.

Steve Vaughan (24:17.048)
Fantastic.

Nick Church (24:17.174)
And I suppose that that that is helped by not using flash, right? If you're using the venue lighting, you're picking up the atmosphere. There's that shot on your website of Richard Ashcroft where there's the different kind of lights behind. You can see this sort of atmosphere in the site, it's like haze in the, the, in the air between you and him. And it's just very atmospheric photo.

Steve Vaughan (24:31.115)
Absolutely.

Steve Gerrard (24:37.384)
Yeah, well, thanks. Yeah, that was actually the Verve. It wasn't a Richard Ashcroft headline show. It was when he was in the Verve, so a while ago. But yeah, that's what it is. Flash can kill it sometimes and then kind of, you know, people spend a lot of money on lights when they get to that level of production. And even if sometimes a band, they might be a huge band, but their lighting is still dark.

Steve Vaughan (24:46.03)
So in the band too.

Nick Church (24:48.152)
Hmm.

Nick Church (24:52.995)
Yeah.

Steve Gerrard (25:06.788)
It's, it's dark for a reason. They want that kind of drama to it. So your job is really to sort of capture the drama rather than throwing flash in there to lighten everything up when it's not really meant to look like.

Nick Church (25:20.706)
Yeah, makes sense. How does the from a business point of view, and I don't want you to uncover your whole business strategy for doing this, but how does it work? Who is your, who's your client for a band like let's say Metallica or Megadeth or, or someone like that. Who's the client? it the band themselves, the record label? How does it work?

Steve Gerrard (25:32.019)
I don't mind.

Steve Gerrard (25:43.918)
Usually it's like a magazine or a music blog. Somebody used to, you know, review of the show maybe and these images to compliment the writers review. When I shot Rise Against on Friday, that was working for the band's management. So they contacted me. Can you do any of these dates? That was the only one that I could do. So then they send you a shot list that this is what we need. And sometimes it was very specific and you're like, okay.

Like for Friday, one of the shots they wanted was the drummer shot from the front with his arms in the air. I'm like, why if that doesn't happen? Or what if it happens when I'm at the side of the stage? You know, it's sometimes very specific. And I think it's just like what they dream. you know, it's not like it, you didn't get this shot, you're not going to get paid. So yeah. dropped my earbud.

Steve Vaughan (26:21.56)
Okay.

Nick Church (26:25.368)
You

Steve Vaughan (26:25.454)
In three songs.

Steve Gerrard (26:48.092)
Yeah. And then other times it's sometimes you can be working for the company who made the guitar or the drums. There's lots of people who need images from shows, but most of the stuff that you'll probably see on my website was done working for magazines or music blogs.

Steve Vaughan (26:58.537)
Yeah, of course.

Steve Vaughan (27:09.13)
Isaac.

Nick Church (27:10.222)
So that's quite useful for, I know one of the questions from our Facebook group, the photography pod was about how one might get into that, you know, how do you generate an income? You know, it's above the getting free entry to a club type level. And it sounds like there's a few routes either through bands, finding you by shooting other bands, management companies and publications as well. Is there, who's your favorite person that you've worked with?

Steve Gerrard (27:35.39)
Yeah, I mean.

Steve Vaughan (27:40.578)
That's a of a question.

Steve Gerrard (27:41.454)
Do mean artist?

Nick Church (27:42.806)
Yeah, his favorite artists you've worked with, Because your favorite people is Steve and I. now, so but in shooting music.

Steve Gerrard (27:48.273)
Yeah.

Steve Vaughan (27:49.487)
No, it's the whole of Pearl Jam.

Steve Gerrard (27:53.08)
well, I mean, a lot of the time I don't even get to interact with them. You know, they're on stage. I'm in the pit and they're done on Friday with Rides Against because they had more access and I was working for the management. Then, you know, they came, came off stage and immediately came over to thank me for taking pictures, which is just really, really nice. A lot of people wouldn't do that. I have been lucky enough to go on tour.

Nick Church (27:59.096)
Hmm.

Steve Vaughan (27:59.424)
Ignacio.

Steve Vaughan (28:12.686)
Brilliant. Yeah.

Nick Church (28:13.368)
That's nice.

Steve Gerrard (28:18.504)
with a couple of bands occasionally, not for like months and months, like some people I know. But there's a bank called Gujira, they're a metal band, they actually played at the Olympics in Paris. Yeah. And I got to go on a few days with them. So that meant not just taking pictures of the concert, like hanging out with them, taking portraits, taking pictures of them, just hanging out backstage, which is definitely not like a Motley Crue documentary, it's more like people just...

Nick Church (28:29.23)
Mm

Steve Vaughan (28:29.784)
All right.

Steve Gerrard (28:47.582)
catching up on their emails or checking their phone. No, no, no, no, not like Spinal Tap. No Stonehenge on that one. Yeah, amazing. Yeah. If you haven't, yeah, my wife still hasn't seen Spinal Tap. She's Canadian. And yeah, she needs to. She needs to. Yeah. But yeah, what was question?

Steve Vaughan (28:49.89)
It's not like spinal tap then it's not everybody, know, no, no. Okay. Rats. My favorite movie of all time, by the way, guys. Yeah. Yeah.

Nick Church (28:50.05)
Yeah

Nick Church (28:55.693)
You

That's a good reference for the younger listener out there.

Steve Vaughan (29:08.376)
shame on it. brilliant movie.

Nick Church (29:09.954)
Yeah.

Nick Church (29:14.018)
Well, I suppose I suppose it was about who's your favourite person that you've worked with. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Steve Gerrard (29:19.414)
yeah, so Gajira, we were talking about Gajira. So now there are, when I worked with them, they were much smaller bands. Now they're headline arenas. But I have to say they're some of the loveliest people that I've ever been able to work with. Even though they play this loud, aggressive music, quite often I find that the people who play that kind of music are just the sweetest, most humble people. Then I think they get all their anger out through the music and then end up being just like...

Steve Vaughan (29:42.639)
Mm. Interesting.

Steve Gerrard (29:49.372)
super chill in between. Yeah, and that was a pleasure to do.

Nick Church (29:50.732)
Yeah, I agree. I think a lot of, see a lot of metal bands that I've sort of seen interviewed and bands, I've been a band myself, so bands you play with, it's generally musicians are pretty chilled out, bunch of people, they're very inclusive. You know, it's that kind of environment. think the arts is an inclusive, chilled out kind of group of people into bands like Slayer have to put on a bit of a facade.

around it to sort of not lead into that too much. do you find that when you're shooting musicians on stage, like with a bride and groom or someone that and portrays some people just take a better photo than others, something more photogenic, do you find people that you think, wow, like let's say it slash just whatever angle, he just looks fantastic and other musicians aren't as much or?

Steve Vaughan (30:18.924)
Yeah.

Steve Gerrard (30:41.0)
Yeah, I guess that is true. Some people are just not as forthcoming on stage. They don't perform as much. They just play their instruments to the best of their ability. it all depends. Photographing James Blunt for three songs, after the third song you're kind of done. You know what mean? But then there's other bands who after the first three songs, they're just getting warmed up and it can be completely...

Steve Vaughan (30:59.682)
Yeah.

Steve Vaughan (31:07.544)
Yeah.

Steve Gerrard (31:11.27)
unknown what happens next. And the worst thing is, when you get those first three songs, and then you spend the rest of the set in the crowd going, I would have made a good shot. I would have made a good shot. I wish I was in the pit for that. It can be frustrating. And at the same time, if I if I go to a show without my camera, I'm constantly like, I wish I'd been able to shoot that. I would have been cool. But I'm

Steve Vaughan (31:20.674)
Hahaha.

Nick Church (31:24.974)
That's interesting.

Nick Church (31:36.302)
You

Steve Gerrard (31:37.576)
But yeah, some people are just born performers, aren't they? And some people are bass players.

Steve Vaughan (31:40.834)
Yeah.

Nick Church (31:42.954)
Exactly. I was, when I was performing, cause I used be the singer, I was a bass player, but in the role of a singer. So I would do nothing. it was, so I would be the, I would be the biggest challenge, I think for a photographer to try and get a photo where I just didn't look like I was.

Steve Vaughan (31:54.71)
I'm definitely a performer but I suck on the bass, that's probably why I'm not very good at the bass.

Steve Gerrard (31:57.33)
Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, we shouldn't be mean about bass players. mean, there are people like Steve Harris from Iron Maiden and Nikki Sixx, you know, they're bass players, but they're amazing to shoot as well. And then you have somebody like Geddy Lee from Rush who is doing vocals and playing bass and playing keyboards at the same time.

Steve Vaughan (32:10.775)
Yeah.

Nick Church (32:11.479)
F

Steve Vaughan (32:19.33)
You're talking my era, Steve. That's my all time favorite band, I'm afraid, because I'm older than you guys. Massive Rushhead, yeah. Yeah, Canadian. you go. I do a plug here. I do a weekly internet radio show, but I'm not a proper DJ like you, but I do a weekly rock show. And that's the kind of stuff I play. I am doing a request show, so before you go, I'll get a request from you from there. Have you ever felt threatened at any time in the job? I'm thinking now the music stuff rather than weddings. I mean, that happens as well as we know, but...

Steve Gerrard (32:22.59)
That was it. Canadian.

Steve Gerrard (32:32.115)
I'm not anymore.

Steve Vaughan (32:48.911)
in the, in the music stuff, have ever felt uncomfortable or ever felt, you know, this isn't right. need to get out of this kind of scenario.

Steve Gerrard (32:56.51)
Yeah, well, actually I shot a gig last week, a bank on nails, the heaviest band, like hard as nails. Probably one of the heaviest bands in the world at the moment. Amazing or what they do, but it's brutal. it's, most people wouldn't even get it at all. But when I, was the only photographer for the gig actually. And when I arrived to get my photo pass, they said, we have strict instructions for you.

Steve Vaughan (33:04.021)
Okay.

Steve Gerrard (33:23.592)
This pass will get you to the side of the stage either side, but for your own safety, and that was the words they used, we don't want you in the front of the stage.

Steve Vaughan (33:30.86)
Wow. Wow.

Steve Gerrard (33:34.972)
I'm like, okay, understood. And I kind of knew why, because I've seen that band a few times before. But it was still, it was still great. Like I had good access to get some good coverage. Mosh pits. Yeah, just, just like quite aggressive mosh pits. And I've, I've been in mosh pits before where people have ran at me and my camera smacks against my face and I've started bleeding.

Steve Vaughan (33:45.422)
So what happened then? it mush pits and, yeah.

Steve Vaughan (33:53.656)
Gosh.

Steve Vaughan (34:01.268)
my God.

Steve Gerrard (34:01.652)
I've shot gigs where the guitarist hit me in the head with his guitar and I've been bleeding as well. Yeah, not intentionally, just accidentally because you just get caught up in the energy of it all. One funny story was when I shot 30 Seconds to Mars, which is Jared Leto's band, who's obviously famous for all kinds of things.

Steve Vaughan (34:06.016)
intentionally or to

like, boom.

Steve Vaughan (34:14.42)
Amazing.

Nick Church (34:16.206)
could have damaged his guitar.

Steve Vaughan (34:18.037)
Yeah.

Steve Vaughan (34:27.948)
Yeah, let's put it in here.

Steve Gerrard (34:31.668)
I was working for a magazine called rock sound in the UK and most photographers are to shoot from the front of house, which is the sound desk. So they were further back and it was an arena show, but because I was working for that magazine and they were doing like a full review, they gave me extra access to go down the front. And, I guess to try and get some variety because they needed variety for the magazine, not just one shot from the soundboard. So.

I went down and met the tour manager. He's like, you can go here, here, here, and here. And when, when he starts, there's like a big intro. So you want to make sure you're right in the front of the stage. And, so I went down there, show started as soon as Jared Lyle spotted me. This is an, in an arena with thousands of people. He turned around and was like signaling to people and refused to turn back towards the crowd and me until I was.

They escorted out. I have no idea why he had that much of a strong reason for not wanting pictures from that close up. yeah, I felt very weird about that whole situation. I didn't feel particularly threatened. I didn't think I was going to get in a fight with him.

Nick Church (35:32.283)
Awkward.

Steve Vaughan (35:39.831)
a grave.

Steve Vaughan (35:51.512)
That wasn't personal against you. was just that you were taking photos in that proximity and that location. Right. Okay. Wasn't that he hated your photos or something?

Steve Gerrard (35:55.698)
Yeah, he obviously just didn't want people there and there was a miscommunication between whoever. I was just told where I could be and I was there and then apparently he didn't agree that I was allowed to be there. But yeah, it's the big metal shows and some of the hardcore shows that can be, you have to be careful. You have to pay attention to who's moving around you. Some of the big shows where you've got crowd surfers coming over the barrier.

Steve Vaughan (36:10.264)
Wow. Tough, very tough.

Steve Vaughan (36:20.984)
Yeah, sure.

Steve Gerrard (36:25.502)
You know, you're facing the stage trying to get the shot that way, but they're coming over the barrier behind your head. so usually security are pretty good about kind of giving you the heads up that somebody's coming your way, but you do have to kind of have eyes in the bucket head sometimes to avoid being hurt, but it's fun.

Steve Vaughan (36:25.507)
Yeah.

Nick Church (36:31.466)
Right.

Steve Vaughan (36:41.752)
I'll bet.

Nick Church (36:46.168)
All right, sounds it. I was gonna say it was reminding me of speaking to, we had a federal journalist that works in war zones last week talking on the show and it sounds similar to that. Like, yeah, that situational awareness is critical to be completely aware.

Steve Vaughan (36:46.297)
I've got a question. Yeah, but after you're gone. Yeah.

Steve Gerrard (36:56.082)
Yeah, same thing.

Steve Vaughan (37:00.908)
I'm gonna stick with weddings, I think.

Steve Gerrard (37:01.544)
Yeah, for sure. I wouldn't really compare it, but sometimes it might get a bit close.

Nick Church (37:08.718)
You

Steve Vaughan (37:09.4)
So my question, Steve, if you could photograph any band that you haven't or performer you haven't photographed either alive or dead or, you know, in history or whatever, who would that be?

Steve Gerrard (37:22.324)
I mean, there's still people, there's still big bands that I haven't shot. They're still touring like the Rolling Stones. I've actually never, I've never shot two fires, which is weird. If I could shoot any band from history, like go back in the day, then, yeah, you put me on the spot now. I mean, maybe the Sex Pistols in 77, like at the 100 Club where people were spitting on

Steve Vaughan (37:26.094)
Okay, all right.

Steve Vaughan (37:31.414)
wow. Yeah.

Steve Vaughan (37:50.688)
Amazing. Yeah, to wear a raincoat and a brolly, yeah.

Steve Gerrard (37:52.262)
each other and that, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Something like that. I mean, there's people that I never got to see that I would have loved to have just seen, nevermind photograph. People like Jeff Buckley. I'm a big fan of Jeff Buckley. But you know, any of these kind of iconic bands from over time going back to the sixties and photographing Bob Dylan, you know, that kind of stuff would be pretty amazing. Yeah.

Steve Vaughan (38:01.119)
with amazing.

Steve Vaughan (38:06.632)
yeah. Yeah, completely.

Steve Vaughan (38:19.968)
Amazing. Yeah, absolutely. Anymore from you Nick?

Nick Church (38:26.712)
No, that's just been fascinating. you've before we let you go, Steve, have you got any working with all of these artists and bands, any memorable stories that stand out, things that may have happened that were ones that you don't want to risk getting sued about?

Steve Vaughan (38:28.258)
He does.

Steve Gerrard (38:42.804)
Apart from the Jarrod Leigh story. Let me think. I think one of the interesting things for me is that there is this industry standard of the first three songs and sometimes that can be stretched either way. As an example, Nicole Schurzinger, she was in Pussycat Dolls or something like that when she went solo.

Steve Vaughan (38:57.964)
Mmm.

Steve Vaughan (39:10.594)
Yeah.

Steve Gerrard (39:13.012)
She gave photographers one minute in the pit. And the first half of that, like first 30 seconds, was just a silhouette at the back of the stage. And it's just like, how are you, you know, how are you meant to get anything from that? I've heard rumors that Bob Dylan only allows people one frame. Like they have to go click and then you're out. Whether that's true or not, I couldn't tell you 100%. But then there's other bands that like, yeah.

Steve Vaughan (39:21.934)
to grave.

Steve Vaughan (39:31.82)
Wow.

Nick Church (39:34.456)
Where?

Steve Vaughan (39:38.284)
And imagine if you hadn't wear the film on in the film days.

Steve Gerrard (39:42.676)
They were actually new. These are the bands that let you shoot the whole show. I've had that sometimes, which is good and bad because you you get, you get a lot of variety, but you kind of don't get to enjoy the show quite as much. But then like one time I was shooting Nine Inch Nails and they gave me songs 11, 12 and 13. Now I love Nine Inch Nails. I'm a big, big fan. And, but it meant that for the first

Steve Vaughan (39:47.063)
All right.

Steve Vaughan (40:04.802)
random.

Nick Church (40:06.231)
Yeah.

Steve Gerrard (40:12.564)
10, 11 songs of the set. I was just kind of going, I think we're on nine. It's kind of tricky. Yeah, but then the weirdest one was a band called Peeping Tom. I don't know if you've heard them, but the singer is Mike Patton, who used to be in Faith No More. Is he still in Faith No More, maybe? Anyway, for that one, we were told the last three songs. Now, how am supposed to know when the last three songs are?

Nick Church (40:19.814)
I wouldn't even think to keep track.

Steve Vaughan (40:26.86)
I've heard of them, yeah.

Steve Vaughan (40:41.122)
Ha ha ha.

Steve Gerrard (40:42.932)
That was the challenge, but luckily somebody kind of gave us a signal at that point. yeah, but I think for them, didn't want to look all clean and fresh. He wanted it to look like he'd been through the wringer for the pictures, which is cool. I respect that.

Steve Vaughan (40:48.738)
You got the set list.

Steve Vaughan (40:55.608)
Yeah.

Nick Church (41:01.048)
Yeah.

Steve Vaughan (41:01.422)
Absolutely, yes. Steve's been fascinating hearing your stories. I could talk for hours or listen to you for hours, more the point really. I'm going to push you for my radio show. I'm going to push you for a request. It could be rock, but apart from that, you can pick any song or any band you like.

Nick Church (41:06.232)
Absolutely.

Steve Gerrard (41:18.004)
rock within what, what all kinds of genres.

Steve Vaughan (41:22.03)
Classic rock, prog rock, metal, as long as it's not hip hop or dance music I played.

Steve Gerrard (41:28.884)
Okay, well, I could be greedy and go for something like November rain. So I'd take a bath for your radio show. I would say stink this by tool.

Steve Vaughan (41:37.646)
That's fine, it's less requests.

Steve Vaughan (41:49.51)
Good choice.

Steve Gerrard (41:50.984)
because it's not an obvious one, but it's just still a classic and it's still, does still get a buzz every time that opens with that guitar, know.

Steve Vaughan (41:53.357)
Yeah.

Nick Church (41:58.22)
I don't think I know that I'm gonna

Steve Vaughan (41:58.286)
great choice. know the band, don't know the track, but I know the band, yeah. Awesome. I'll make a note of that one. it will be, by the time this goes out, you'll have heard it the week before. thank you again. It's been fascinating listening to you and please stay on for the last 15 minutes or so of the show if you can. would be great to get your input as well. Yeah. It's been fantastic. So Nick, great guest. Thanks for organizing. Fantastic.

Nick Church (42:01.976)
I'm gonna check that one out.

Steve Gerrard (42:03.518)
There you go.

Steve Gerrard (42:10.419)
Hehehe.

Steve Gerrard (42:16.626)
Yeah, thanks guys.

Nick Church (42:22.784)
Amazing. Yeah. Best guest ever. He said that every week. But this was... Yeah, exactly. No, thanks.

Steve Vaughan (42:25.838)
It's out of choice of two so far, but yeah. So what else have we been up to? So from an industry news perspective, what have you seen this last couple of weeks,

Nick Church (42:37.078)
I've seen that DJI are in a spot of bother in the U S because there is a, they could be restricted. It looks like they'll be restricted from selling their new model drones in the U S market due to fears of spying, you know, Chinese manufacturer. So it's currently going through, I'm not an expert on the political system in the U S but through Congress or the Senate or whatever, but it's got a certain.

Steve Vaughan (42:51.468)
Bye bye.

Nick Church (43:03.576)
path through there and it's expecting that it will get approved that they will be banned from selling their new drones. So people with the older drones can still fly them. So that's going to hit their market share quite a lot.

Steve Vaughan (43:10.284)
Okay. Big time. Yeah. I guess with that play in Canada as well, Steve, I mean, what tends to happen in the States tends to get mirrored in Canada. Often. Not always. Yeah.

Steve Gerrard (43:20.628)
I'm not sure how much in mirrors, but I know that, to fly a drone, you do have to do like a course now here and get like a proper approval. And the course is a few days. think it's not just like a few hours on the afternoon. It's right. Yeah. Yeah. I've never used the drone side. I don't know the ins and outs of it, but I know people who do. So yeah, it's definitely, I can understand as well, like why they need to be very like safety first sort of thing.

Steve Vaughan (43:27.5)
Yeah, yeah, we do. Yeah.

Steve Vaughan (43:32.386)
Yeah, depends on the weight of the drone normally, but yeah.

Steve Vaughan (43:43.959)
Yeah, sure.

Steve Vaughan (43:49.772)
Yeah. It's more, think, in this, what Nick's referring to, it's the US government are worried about, Canadian, sorry, Canadian, Chinese companies flying drones over United States and then sending information back to China. I think that's the fear, isn't it? Yeah.

Steve Gerrard (43:49.97)
You can just imagine how many things you can do with a drone.

Nick Church (44:00.578)
the Chinese government.

Steve Gerrard (44:06.29)
Right.

Nick Church (44:07.91)
There's some strange wording that they're going to, the band is going to be any connected drone, but of course DJI require that connection. It has to be there has to be connectivity to the handset. It's your phone or the RC controller. And yeah, they're worried about the potential for basically having satellite imagery being shipped back or private data being sent back to China. So yes, that's going to be quite interesting to keep an on that. What about you Steve?

Steve Vaughan (44:15.917)
Of course, yeah.

Steve Vaughan (44:26.528)
Yeah, I think.

Steve Vaughan (44:32.814)
So I'm DJI, they've got a new action camera coming out, because I'm quite an action camera fan. I don't know why, because I don't use them professionally, but I do have several here. One of these days I'm actually going to do some vlogging if I ever get the confidence, but I've got the Osmo Action 4, there's a 5 coming out. It'll be out by the time people listen to that, which seems to have some exciting new stuff on it really. So the quality out of them are amazing actually, these little action cameras, as long as you've got the light of course.

Nick Church (44:56.62)
Yeah, no, I've worked with a couple of videographers that use them for my weddings. Just as a good locked off angle and the footage is fantastic considering the size of it. Really good.

Steve Vaughan (45:05.137)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So that's supposed to be out. And then you go pro 13 have been seems to be quite lukewarm received. It seems to be just repackaged the old stuff really. So, in other news, my camera is getting fixed. And I say seven or four, which was poorly, it looks like the IBIS unit was fried on it. So not quite as serious as I feared. So I can't use as an excuse to buy a new one. Unfortunately. Samantha would veto that really. so that's coming up.

Nick Church (45:31.33)
Well, she's away. She's away now. you could, you know, if you get your skates on.

Steve Vaughan (45:34.306)
That's true. Yeah. Genius. Yeah. why are you away? So I look what I bought. Yeah. That's good. I'll go down like a cup of cold sake probably. but I've, I bear the idea in mind, on the techie stuff, mentioned on the last show that I'd just been on a flash photography workshop with a phenomenal, Colombian photographer called, Christian Cardona. Steve is worth checking out, you know, for some very different in terms of amazingly created flash images, but

Nick Church (45:38.828)
Ha ha ha.

Nick Church (45:52.442)
yes, yeah.

Steve Vaughan (46:02.74)
Something he did do, and I'd like both of your thoughts on this actually, something he was very, very, very keen on, is that he always shoots in Adobe RGB. He shoots RAW, but he always shoots Adobe RGB, even though his output to things like pick time and to the print companies he uses in sRGB, which I guess is what all of us do really. And his view was that even though you're going to export in a restricted color gamut, your

capturing in a wider color gamut. So you're getting more information, more data. Now I did that at last, the last wedding and just looking at the edit, it does seem richer even after I've exported it. So whether I'm fooling myself or I haven't done the wedding by the way, I've just done some previews, but whether I'm fooling myself there or there's something in it. have either of you two ever played with doing that and what are your thoughts if so?

Steve Gerrard (46:54.204)
I've heard about it. I've heard about people doing it. I've never done it myself. I would be interested to try it out and see if I can know it's a difference, but it could be a placebo thing maybe.

Steve Vaughan (47:04.152)
Well, I wonder that. Yeah. Yeah. You're not trying it, Nick.

Nick Church (47:05.921)
Yeah, we ought to send you, we ought to send you Steve five, like six, five or six shots. Some of which have, are a daily RGB and some are SRGB and see if, but yeah, it's something I've not even thought about it other than the only thing that I've ever think about is making sure it matches throughout the whole kind of shooting edit delivery, you know, workflow, but it makes sense. It is a wider, it's a wider gamut and presumably there are, you want all that kind of information, even if you end up exporting, you know, to something that's narrow.

Steve Vaughan (47:13.22)
thanks.

Steve Vaughan (47:21.548)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Steve Vaughan (47:34.653)
I it's on the basis of the more, and your IT background, but the more information you get in, the more you got to get out at the other side of it. I played a lot, and this is a whole can of worms and a rabbit hole to disappear down, but I played a lot around with display calibration and things, although I use a MacBook now, I also use a PC, but I don't have an Apple monitor. have a large Dell monitor, and I've tried to calibrate it so it looks like an iPhone, because Apple use their own...

Nick Church (47:41.955)
Mm.

Steve Vaughan (48:02.702)
Colorspace, which is called display P3, which is even which is sort of P3 was developed for driving movies, would you believe? And it has a like a greeny white balance. So what the Apple profile is, is the P3 wider gamma, but using a traditional 6500 Kelvin white balance. So I've calibrated my monitor. So hopefully when I export the photos, because let's be honest, most of our couples are looking on my phones first now, that actually they look consistent because

Nick Church (48:10.508)
That was it.

Steve Vaughan (48:31.784)
you don't want is the phone call that says my bridesmaids dress look different to what I expected really.

Nick Church (48:36.236)
Yeah. But you see this sort of, I'm coming up against this more often now that, in wedding films that I'm just editing a few at the moment, the default in Adobe Premiere is to use, a gamut that's suitable for broadcasts or a gamut, a gamut curve rather than QuickTime or YouTube or anything else, which is what everyone's going to be watching the, you know, and, you change that and the colors are totally different. The contrast is much, much higher.

Steve Vaughan (48:41.1)
Yeah.

Steve Vaughan (48:52.75)
or Rec .709. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, that's right. Yeah.

Nick Church (49:04.087)
If you broadcast the blacks much deeper, so yeah, it's something I'm starting to think a more about.

Steve Vaughan (49:09.004)
Yeah, I mean, it's a whole topic for another show, really, but you can very quickly disappear down your rabbit hole and chase your tail almost on this kind of thing, really. I suppose the main thing is do the images look pleasing to you, but more importantly to your client, really. And I guess in your work, Steve, with all the complex lighting on stage, you must be quite a challenge to edit it sometimes in terms of getting, I try to get realism, but in terms of consistency with what you saw on the day, really.

Nick Church (49:13.437)
yeah.

Steve Gerrard (49:34.194)
Yeah, definitely. Like you obviously get a lot of color casts and things like that and trying to, trying to make the picture look as good as it can be, but without changing it too much from how it looked to be there is like that can be the challenge. sometimes, you know, distracting things in the background that might not look as good. And you know that, especially now with all the AI editing you can do in Photoshop and stuff you can, you can remove.

Steve Vaughan (49:38.957)
Yeah.

Steve Vaughan (50:00.152)
Yeah.

Steve Gerrard (50:03.208)
things, you can remove people, you can change colors and all this kind of stuff. it's, you know, where do you stop with that? And are you, you know, representing how, how documentary, know, proper documentary do you want to go with your concept photography? And I think that's just down to the individual at the end of the day. Do you want to be like super artistic or do you want to be as, as authentic and keep it real as you think you should?

Steve Vaughan (50:05.27)
Mm. Yeah, that's right,

Nick Church (50:15.363)
Hmm.

Steve Vaughan (50:19.362)
Yeah.

Steve Vaughan (50:29.614)
Great point. Interesting discussion about this with our guest last time, Guy Peterson, who's quite, very anti sort of AI manipulation of photojournalism images. Because, obviously what you want is authenticity of what was going on at the time, really. And yeah, I it would be a challenge in your work, Steve. Yeah.

Nick Church (50:46.828)
Yeah, sort of on that on that balance, isn't it? A gig or performance. It's not like a wedding, which doesn't, you if there's a carrier bag in the back of a wedding shot, you want to remove it. If it's photojournalism, you definitely wouldn't. But it is a situation where people are looking at the photos and they want to be seeing what was there on the night.

Steve Vaughan (50:49.176)
Mmm.

Steve Vaughan (50:57.325)
Yeah.

Steve Vaughan (51:05.676)
Yeah, I suppose it's one way to get Jimmy Hendrix, Mark Bowlin, George Harrison all on stage, I suppose, at the same time with AI, but that would be cheating, wouldn't it, If only.

Steve Gerrard (51:14.12)
yeah, JB Hendrix. would have been another good choice for who I'd want to shoot. Yeah. But I think, yeah, one of my pet hates is when you've got like this cool band and sometimes they can, you know, they can have like an amazing stage show and outfits and all that kind of stuff. But then they've just got like these cheap water bottles next to them on the drum riser. And it's just like, totally takes away from the whole scene, you know.

Steve Vaughan (51:16.992)
Yeah, it would. Yeah, lots of colours.

Nick Church (51:17.142)
yeah.

Steve Vaughan (51:34.742)
Yeah. Yeah.

Steve Vaughan (51:40.514)
Yeah. Can he hide that somewhere?

Nick Church (51:41.006)
So you've got Kiss all sort of made up, but they've got like a packet of Pringles next to them or something. It's like you're sort of losing the artistic.

Steve Vaughan (51:45.678)
Other potato -based snacks are available, yes. That wasn't an endorsement. Nick, don't have a book this time. Do you have a movie to recommend?

Steve Gerrard (51:45.844)
Yeah.

Steve Gerrard (51:51.503)
Ha ha.

Nick Church (51:58.368)
I touched on it last time it was civil war. but I don't think I mentioned it properly, but yeah, by Alex Garland and, yeah, really great film set in sort of near future semi dystopian, in the U S not quite that it's literally, you know, it's, it's sort of a commentary on, can almost see it as what may happen Trump wise of that, that if those sorts of politics became over overflowing.

Steve Vaughan (52:04.449)
Right.

Steve Vaughan (52:12.056)
post -apocalyptic or yeah. Okay.

Steve Vaughan (52:23.48)
Yeah.

Nick Church (52:24.52)
But it's not directly about that. it's, yeah, so there's lots of conflict going on between different factions. And as we can imagine now that when things happen, all the protests that happened in the UK recently, there were just dozens of photographers, amateur and professional getting photos of them getting some incredible photos of immersive photography. So all of these photojournalists are following around the troops and each troop almost has their own

Steve Vaughan (52:40.013)
Mm.

Nick Church (52:53.496)
Excuse me, each group would have their own photojournalist team that's capturing those stills and it kind of talks about the area of should you, it doesn't matter what the story is, you have to capture the story regardless of how palatable it might be or otherwise. So yeah, it's an interesting film. It looks great. You know, it's quite long, but I loved it. I thought it was really good.

Steve Vaughan (53:07.585)
Yeah, yeah.

Steve Vaughan (53:15.33)
Yeah, exactly. The one with Kirsten Dunstan. She's shooting film at one stage. Yeah. Yeah. I'll check that one out. Yeah. Yeah. I think my wife's saying it's probably on the skybox somewhere. So, quick time out second. Do we have another guest for our next time? Do we, we able to announce who our next guest is?

Nick Church (53:17.4)
Correct. That's right. Exactly.

Nick Church (53:30.766)
We could, well, Geraint would be up. It'd be useful to chat to him about film photography, if you want to link it to that.

Steve Vaughan (53:39.488)
Okay, so I just cause for the for the outro, we normally say who our next guest is, don't we? Yeah. Are you okay to do that then? Yeah. Okay. Back in then. So, so dear listener, thank you very much for joining us for the latest edition of the photography pod. Hope you've enjoyed it. It's fascinating, Steve, having you on the show. Thank you ever so much for being with us again today. Don't forget if you've enjoyed the show to subscribe, because that way you'll make sure that you'll get each episode on time and you can do so in Apple.

Nick Church (53:42.477)
Yeah, yeah.

Steve Vaughan (54:07.02)
Spotify we are on YouTube but also as an audio only podcast at the moment and if you can leave us a review on Apple or Spotify I believe as well it does help us in lots of mysterious ways. Nick who we hope to get on the show next time.

Nick Church (54:19.688)
Next time we're hoping to get someone I've worked with several times is Geraint Roberts, who I know she shoots a lot of. We talked last week about your passion projects and taking stuff out of your comfort zone. So Geraint shoots a lot of his work, certainly his own personal photography in 35mm film. I thought it'd be really interesting to talk about that. He did a trip to Japan where he retook his film cameras and...

Steve Vaughan (54:36.983)
All right.

Steve Vaughan (54:40.546)
That would be awesome. would take me back to my childhood. Which was a long time ago. Steve, thanks again for joining us. Nick, great to see you, mate. Thanks again for listening to us show. Sorry again. Steve, thanks again for having us. Christ, one more time. Steve, thanks again for coming on the show. Nick, great to see you again, mate. Thanks for listening to us. We'll be back again in two weeks time. Until then, happy shooting out there.

Nick Church (54:43.022)
Exactly, yeah.

Steve Gerrard (54:49.099)
Thank

Nick Church (55:05.954)
Bye.